Table Talk - Development

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Light of Andorra
1381

Hello. I would like to enlist the aid of all willing to review my starting magus concepts. Feedback on feasibility and fit with the current troupe would be greatly appreciated. This is my second time playing in an Ars Magica saga. The first was a single session in the late 90's and I played a companion.

He is presented as a young magus, recently having passed his gauntlet.

Magus Laszlo, Assessor of House Tremere

Characteristics: Int 0, Per +1, Str 0, Sta 0, Prs +2, Com +2, Dex 0, Qik 0.
Size: 0
Age: 25 (25)
Decreptitude: 0
Warping Score: 0 (0)
Confidence Score: 1 (3)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Minor Magical Focus (certamen), Gentle Gift, Method Caster, Well Traveled, Favors (House Tremere), Covenant Upbringing, Temperate.
Personality Traits: Brave +3, Conscientious +3, Cautious +1
Reputation: None
Combat
Dodging: Init, Attack n/a, Defense, Damage n/a
Soak: +0
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious.
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20)
Abilities: Artes Liberales 1, Awareness 3, Bargain 1, Carousse 1, Charm 1, Code of Hermes 1, Concentration 1, Etiquette (House Tremere) 2, Finesse 1, Folk Ken 2, Guile 2, Latin 4, Living Language: Romanian 3, Living Language: Arabic (Classical) 1, Living Language: Occitan (Catalan) 4, Living Language: Spanish (Castilian) 1, Magic Theory 3, Native Language: Hungarian 5, Order of Hermes Lore 1, Parma Magica 1, Penetration 1, Hispania Lore 1, Survival 1, Transylvania Lore 2.
Arts: Cr 3, In 1, Mu 3, Pe 1, Re 6, An 3, Aq 0, Au 0, Co 3, He 0, Ig 0, Im 0, Me 6, Te 3, Vi 3.
Twilight Scars: None.
Equipment: Wizard robes.
Encumbrance: 0 (0)
Spells Known:
Soothe the Ferocious Bear (Re/An 10)
Ward Against Rain (Re/Aq 10)
Sight of the True Form (In/Co 10)
Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand (Re/Co 5)
Words of the Unbroken Silence (Cr/Me 10)
Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit (Pe/Me 10)
Ring of Warding Against Spirits (Re/Me 15)
The Call to Slumber (Re/Me 10)
Confusion of the Numbed Will (Re/Me 15)
Rusted Decay of Ten Score Years (Pe/Te 10)
The Unseen Porter (Re/Te 10)
Sense the Nature of Vis (In/Vi 5)

Notes:Laszlo is a handsome man whose calm presence and demeanor is infectious to those around him. He was born in a Transylvanian covenant to a Magus and coven-woman. His gentle gift and temperance are hereditary traits and aided in his being trained as an assessor for the House.

Shortly after his sixth birthday he left his home covenant with a Hispanus Magus, his master, for a covenant in the Guadarrama mountains. There he began his studies in the Hermetic arts and travelled with his master through the areas of Southern France, Andorra, and the kingdoms of Hispania to include Portugal, Leon, Castille, Aragon, and Navarre.

As an assessor, Laszlo's training has been stretched into a broad range of disciplines in both mundane and arcane abilities. He truly enjoys interacting with people of various cultures, and of learning new languages.

1382

two things strike me:

  1. the strange distribution of attributes: most magi are of higher int and sta.
  2. the absence of any flaws beyond story and personality flaws (which is formally correct, but strange). Combined with the gentle gift, and temperate, it is a character that was created to eliminate weaknesses that make him unusual - or to put it more succintly - he seems boring.
  3. brave and cautious
  4. specialties are missing
1383

That is four things that struck JeanMichelle but I have comments too.

  1. It does seem the flaws are all ones that aren't really flaws or very minimal flaws. Indeed, only 5 pts of merits and flaws were taken
  2. If you are an accessor, I am surprised you don't have intrigue and only minimal charm but a high awareness. Why not more Ars Liberales to know more of books and such?
  3. If that is indeed your focus, why is Intellego 1 (learning information) and Rego 6 (control). I would think InVi to test for magic would be a critical focus.
  4. Why the arabic? You were in christian lands it seems and score is too low to let you read (need a score of 3 to be able to read even if you had the Ars Liberales 2 to have the second alphabet)
  5. I am assuming you assess the value of objects in which case, why no craft skills?
1384

Thank you for responding. I updated him and posted his new sheet below my responses to your feedback.

  1. Understood. His role as an assessor is in politics, information gathering, and mercantile interests. Someone had posted on the boards something I had not thought of while creating other potential characters and that was using magic as a means to an ends, not as an end unto itself. As mentioned in the initial post, Laszlo is not near as cerebral as other magi, but he fits his roll well, and is well educated and supported enough to make up for his lack of arcane talent. This is a new characteristic spread for me. My first shot was a more standard +3 int, +1 sta, 0 in everything else.
  1. Part of my goal was that he is used to organization and structure, and that is why he has Method Caster. You do raise a good point, so I removed his ability to cast spontaneous magic with two flaws, and changed favors to close family ties (Tremere). He is a people person, type A, but understands behaving with reverence. His raising in the covenant has made him pragmatic, especially around others not of his house. It is like a switch, he turns on the charm when in his assessor role or engaging with someone for a reason, otherwise he purposely reverts to his more reserved role as expected by his house.
  1. Maybe cautious is the wrong word. I almost chose predictable. He is brave, as Tremere are raised and trained to be soldiers as well as scholars. I was looking for a word that would show that he does not rush head long into a situation, but is calculating, a planner. He always has a plan.
  1. Specialties added, and with updates is as follows.

Magus Laszlo, Assessor of House Tremere

Characteristics: Int 0, Per +1, Str 0, Sta 0, Prs +2, Com +2, Dex 0, Qik 0.
Size: 0
Age: 25 (25)
Decreptitude: 0
Warping Score: 0 (0)
Confidence Score: 1 (3)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Hermetic Magus, Minor Magical Focus (certamen), Gentle Gift, Method Caster, Well Traveled, Close Family Ties (House Tremere), Covenant Upbringing, Temperate, Difficult Spontaneous Magic, Weak Spontaneous Magic.
Personality Traits: Brave +3, Conscientious +3, Cautious +1
Reputation: None
Combat
Dodging: Init, Attack n/a, Defense, Damage n/a
Soak: +0
Fatigue Levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious.
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20)
Abilities: Artes Liberales 1 (ritual magic), Awareness 3 (non-verbal cues), Bargain 1 (hard sell), Carousse 1 (staying sober), Charm 1 (first impressions), Code of Hermes 1 (mundane relations), Concentration 1 (spell concentration), Etiquette (House Tremere) 2, Finesse 1 (mentem), Folk Ken 2 (magi), Guile 2 (lying to authority), Latin 4 (Hermetic usage), Living Language: Romanian 3 (slang), Living Language: Arabic 1 (classical), Living Language: Occitan (Catalan) 4, Living Language: Spanish (Castilian) 1, Magic Theory 3 (mentem), Native Language: Hungarian 5, Order of Hermes Lore 1 (politics), Parma Magica 1 (mentem), Penetration 1 (mentem), Hispania Lore 1 (Guadarrama mountains), Survival 1 (mountains), Transylvania Lore 2 (Carpathian mountains).
Arts: Cr 3, In 1, Mu 3, Pe 1, Re 6, An 3, Aq 0, Au 0, Co 3, He 0, Ig 0, Im 0, Me 6, Te 3, Vi 3.
Twilight Scars: None.
Equipment: Wizard robes.
Encumbrance: 0 (0)
Spells Known:
Soothe the Ferocious Bear (Re/An 10)
Ward Against Rain (Re/Aq 10)
Sight of the True Form (In/Co 10)
Spasms of the Uncontrolled Hand (Re/Co 5)
Words of the Unbroken Silence (Cr/Me 10)
Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit (Pe/Me 10)
Ring of Warding Against Spirits (Re/Me 15)
The Call to Slumber (Re/Me 10)
Confusion of the Numbed Will (Re/Me 15)
Rusted Decay of Ten Score Years (Pe/Te 10)
The Unseen Porter (Re/Te 10)
Sense the Nature of Vis (In/Vi 5)

Notes: Laszlo is a handsome man whose calm presence and demeanor is infectious to those around him. He was born in a Transylvanian covenant to a Magus and coven-woman. His gentle gift and temperance are hereditary traits and aided in his being trained as an assessor for the House.

Shortly after his sixth birthday he left his home covenant with a Hispanus Magus, his master, for a covenant in the Guadarrama mountains. There he began his studies in the Hermetic arts and travelled with his master through the areas of Southern France, Andorra, and the kingdoms of Hispania to include Portugal, Leon, Castille, Aragon, and Navarre.

As an assessor, Laszlo's training has been stretched into a broad range of disciplines in both mundane and arcane abilities. He truly enjoys interacting with people of various cultures, and of learning new languages.

1385

Thank you for responding. I am still reworking some abilities based on your suggestions, so I won't repost the sheet at this time.

Your point is understood. To represent his structured methods I gave him Difficult and Weak Spontaneous magic to remove his ability to cast such spells. This is more of an extreme representation of his rigid structure. I also swapped favors for close family ties.

I want intrigue but it seemed out of place for me to take it since he has not had real exposure to such dealings. He recently ended his apprenticeship, and is now assuming minor duties in the current representation. If you don't think it is too out of place to take it, I would prefer intrigue to the carouse. The awareness comes from his early years and I continued to place expereince in it to show that he is one that is aware of minor nuances. His specialty was non verbal ques, sort of reading what people say when they aren't saying anything. I had envisioned him travelling with his master and being quiet and observant, not getting a lot of practice in the discussion and negotiation.

My only reasoning for his arts selection was that they are all classic Tremere arts. Since I was playing him as from a rigid hierarchy I was almost assuming he would be forced into certain learning during apprenticeship, and then when he was on his own he could pursue his own interests. If it is allowed, I would have no problem changing his arts.

Our storyguide also mentioned that he prefers to see a decent spread of arts, that is why his highest at the end of apprenticeship is a 6.

This may be due to my ignorance in the history and layout of the land, so please help me here. I gave him rudimentary arabic to represent interaction with Arabs/Moors/Berbers that are still in the Christian lands. Perhaps only in passing on the road, or from brief bartering encounters.

The Assessor line was politics, information gathering, and mercantilism as you pointed out. Typically they specialized in one, and the requirement to belong was gentle gift. He is a Tremere version of a Jerbiton. Perhaps better at information gathering than outright politics, though that is an interest. His magic may not be perfect at the moment for what he does, but as stated in my last post, it is a means to his ends and he will correct his deficiencies in the coming years.

1386

The guy looks too squishy. I don't think the Tremere would be too keen on a non-sponting magus. True Lineages mentions that as a thing they try to avoid.
Where in Hungary/Transylvania did you come accross Berbers & Moors?
Intrigue is essential for a Tremere magus. They are raised up on it.
I never mentioned a desire for a descent spead of Arts. It is a good suggestion, but a descent spread of Abilities is also important.
I don't think an Int of 0 would cut it in House Tremere. Your character though. But it seems to me that a low Int & Gentle Gift magus would be more appropriate for a Jerbiton (who prize social quality more than Intelligence).
You need to rethink your virtue & Flaw picks. Take more of them too.
Brave & Cautious?
Your spell picks are odd for the background you suggest.
I see you traveled with your parens to Spain. That makes sense. You should have more Iberian Lore and less Transylvania Lore then.

1387

Well, responses noted! I'd really rather avoid a protracted and heated forum debate, since I disagree with almost everything that has been posted. That said I'm opting to play something less controversial.

I'm thinking of playing a battle focused Tremere, so I wanted to run a focus idea past y'all.

Life Force / Vitality.

The idea is that at some point along the line, House Tremere's Necromancers developed this foci for the more combat and healing oriented among them. The focus would cover: Healing of wounds ( not disease ), Causing wounds, Longevity, Fatigue manipulation ( within Hermetic limits ).

1388

I don't see anything wrong with not maxing out the 10 pts of flaws.

House Tremere trains many of its apprentices to fulfill certain tasks and have "templates" as it were. One of these templates is referred to as Assessor. Assessors have a variety of urban roles: diplomat,
merchant or spy for the House. For example, Octavian's skillset would suggest he was originally trained to be an assessor (his flaw Judged Unfairly makes such things difficult) or a scout.

His parens did travel with him in the Iberian and Provencal tribunals. Additionally, apprentices meant to be sent in areas where House Tremere is weaker will be trained at Ceoris to create a stronger bond to the House as these magi will likely be left to their own devices with less direct supervision than the house prefers. A such, Ceoris would have the resources necessary to train him in the language if not fluently at least enough to get by if he was meant to be sent to Iberia.

I think Methodical might be the proper term you are looking for.

Intrigue also covers things such as information gathering and observing how actions/plotting have an affect on events.

By focus do you mean how you intend to distribute your experience or do you mean the minor/major magical focus virtues? If the latter, I'm not sure Tremere can take it since they already have the focus in certamen.

So from what I gather, this would be a more combative Physician archetype of the House?

1389

Okay, the Assessor is mean for diplomacy, information gathering and such, then Intrigue is critical skill. Your house would most definatley training you in it (and what they didn't train you, you would have picked up in the internal house politics).

There is no real house required arts. There are trends: Queasitors generally have more intelligo, Flambeau with perdo and ignem, Jerbiton with Mentem and imagonem. Still there are many exceptions to this rule and tremere would have people good in all arts in general since it helps them with certamen to have members with all focuses for the need. If you are trained for intellegence role, Intelligo seems almost critical.

1390

Rego is a very popular technique in House Tremere due to the controlling nature and philosophy of the House. The 5th edition book has made House Tremere less rife with internal politics and more cohesive as a whole compared to the original or Vampire inspired House with the internal rivalry between Goratrix and Eratrius (I think those were the names). House Tytalus, particularly with the dual primi, is more the hotbed for internal strife than Tremere.

1391

First, before discussing the rest, the official might scale for the game as I understand it doesn't seem to correlate with your statement. This is, as originally posted;

While 50 is something 'big' it isn't something that is all that outlandishly uber or powerful that one could never imagine a non-ancient Magus handling one with success. You also did not factor any manner of penetration bonus into your math for required casting totals. With a decent penetration ability to go with good arts and an AC of some kind rather high might scale creatures can be summoned/controlled at non-ancient guy casting total levels.

I think the point of this is that it is intended to give the Sahir a clear difference from other types of summoners in showing that they always -pay- their Jinni for their services... and that therefore there should not be the typical ( often incorrect, but typical ) assumption that spirits are just waiting for a chance to kill their summoner with a Sahir. That they have a more friendly relationship with them, most of the time.

Abilities, no. Goetic Arts are however -not- abilities, not even accelerated ones. They are plainly declared as 'Goetic Arts'. Also the assumption of a focus requiring two arts is incorrect, if common. I made that mistake myself until recently. ( Not that I expect you to agree with me! )

I point to the Vitkir as an example of Magical Foci applied to another tradition in canon. Also, as is constantly ignored by the people that desire to restrict the use of hermetic virtues the language in ArM5 is not as restrictive as what is posited.

This language, while not terribly convoluted, I will grant is terribly vague in application and therefore open to interpretation. But what -is- clear is that Hermetic Virtues are not just for Magi. Only that some are only applicable to Magi, and thus should only be taken by them. To me that means things like 'Hermetic Prestige' or the like, that are plainly things that involve the Order. A magical focus is not something of that kind, and as there is precedent in the RAW ( Vitkir ) for their application to other types of magic/traditions, one could ( and I think 'should' ) extrapolate from that to infer that Magical Foci can be taken by any hedge tradition that uses Arts and functions normally from there... doubling the lesser Art in their totals. If they only have one, they double the one as it is the 'lesser'. The example of the Vitkir is plain, and IMO not exceptional rules-wise.

I remember speaking to you, at length, and agreeing to disagree in regards to Goetia and Realm Alignment etc. Honestly I see the infernal taint of Goetia as the largest -flaw- in the rules regarding Goetia. You seem to see it as the one thing that keeps them from being something you would ban from the game. We agreed to disagree about this a long time ago.

I addressed the issue of foci etc. and hedge magi above, so obviously I disagree with this. Also he would have Parma as a member of Ex Misc.

This is unfortunately correct in the 5th edition, as is stated in the inset 'The Jinn' on page 134 of ArM5. Not exactly like Marko said, but... close enough for government work.

I'm not sure I think this 'should' be so, but it is. Much like my view of the overpowered and biased rules for angels and much else of the divine realm.

1392

I'm alright with a Tremere going with a different focus, as long as their granted virtue point still goes into something that pertains to certamen. ( Special Circumstance comes to mind. ) The focus you are pitching I actually like as presented. Healing is a minor, and applies across forms... so as a major, you get both sides of that to living things... etc. It seems reasonable to me. And it fits the necromantic lineage of the Tremere, of which I am a fan.

1393

We love debate and people are free to disagree. Our job is to ask the questions and sometimes you say "this is what I want" and others you say "I like it" or "I didn't think of that" I like the idea of a Djinn focused Sahir. If you are ex Misc Sahir, you could be pure summoner or you could be hermetic mage with full arts and such and sahir on top of it. The only comment I have is that Magical Focus virtues only apply to HERMETIC spellcasting nad HERMETIC labwork.

Creating a specialized lab for a sahir should most definately function. The principals of sympathy and such apply to all magic, not just hermetic.

As for the new tremere, I could see a possible special circumstances (During certamen) as alternate to the focus certamen but your suggestion of magical focus seems a little undefined. A minor has to be slightly smaller than a technique/form combination. A major focus should be smaller than one art. The life force focus though just doesn't seem like it is easy to clarify exactly what it applied to (though obviously corpus unless you are an animal tender and have animal healer focus, then animal ken added might be nice too and you can become user of animal spies and messangers).

It would work great with my companion. You sway an animal to deliver your messages for you and I have Jehan at the covenant to talk to the animals to get your messages. (the two work together.).

1394

Again, thanks for the response LadyP! Could you take a closer look at the Magical Foci discription please? You're right about a Major being smaller than one art, but it may be spread over a number of arts. Take for example Necromancy or Damage, both of them have a number of applications in more than one art. Minors as you said, should be smaller than one technique / form combination, but they specifically use healing as an example during the description of minor and say that it applies to parts of Creo Animal, Corpus and maybe even Herbam.

As for what exactly the focus applies to, I think I covered everything I was trying to get it to apply to no? Healing of wounds ( not disease ), Causing wounds, Longevity, Fatigue manipulation ( within Hermetic limits ). And yes, I was going to use it as a Major. The way I envisioned it was one of the evolutions of the Necromancy that the House is so famed for. To really simplify things, think Healing and the exact opposite.

I am aiming for more of a Perdo styled Battle Wizard if that helps you to understand where I'm trying to take this character / focus. The idea is that the character can destroy the Life Force of enemies with Perdo Magic. On the flip side, as a Battle Wizard he'd want to be able to patch up wounds etc, so that's where the healing comes in. And it seems to meld quite nicely to me...

Now that seems pretty well defined by me, but please, if you have any questions, ask!

1395

But I like the non-Hermetic Sahir idea :frowning:
But anyways, if you want to be battle focused, I suggest House Flambeau. They are simply the best at what the do (though what they do isn't always very nice). And the lineage of Apromor are the undisputed masters of Perdo.
I would consider Human Vitality a Major Focus if defined as you describe (and if it only applies to humans). Do note that, as a Tremere, you are required to have a Minor Focus in Certamen, prohibiting you from taking a second focus. You could take it as a MajorPotent Magic instead though.

1396

See the previous post concerning healing applying cross form to Animal, Corpus and maybe even Herbam. If healing, as a minor applies to all those forms, then a Major that covers the damaging side of the house, should as well.

As for the non-Hermetic Sahir idea, the rules as written were for a companion level character and the decision to not adjust them makes it unattractive to use them in my 'Mage Slot'. However there's nothing stopping me from making one as a companion for someone!

1397

Non Hermetic Sahirs are definately not Companion level characters. Niall's rules flat out state that they should take up the Magus slot. And, for the singular Free Virtue of Sahir, you recieve the following at no cost
+3 Sahir Summoning
+3 Sahir Commanding
+1 Planetary Magic
+1 Periapts
+1 True Names

That's nine points of free Virtues!

1398

Also, saying that the Tremere must have the focus in Certamen seems restrictive to me! As long as their 'free' virtue applies to Certamen, I see no reason why they should be forced to use their magical focus slot for it. Take for example the Necromancers that the House is famous for, it would seem unrealistic for them not to have a focus in Necromancy, especially since they're considered some of the best around.

1399

Yes. I remeber this scale and still adhere to it.

I recall that the debate about Ludo specifically is what generated this ruling. Deep down inside, I also thing a Magic Focus could apply to non-Hermetic Magic. But this is the ruling I made by the demand of the other players, and it seems to be what the majority insists upon.

Ludo's Commanding is perfectly fine. It is still Tainted. And I would mention that the Infernal does allow for non-Infernal variations of Virtues such as Summoning, Command, and even Hex.

I agree with being ableto learn Parma, I was mistaken there. And, though I philosophically agree with you about the magic Focus, I need to keep consistent with earlier rulings made to appease the other players.

1400

I never saw where it says it takes the Magus slot. I only saw this: "In terms of calculating experience points for Abilities and Arts, a sahir should be generated in the same way as a regular companion or grog character."

Though I do believe you are referencing this? "Sahirs in ArM5 are high-powered non-Hermetic wizards and as such would be best played as an alternative to Hermetic magi"

Keep in mind that they receive a very limited version of Periapts, that Planetary Magic doesn't apply to anything but their Periapts and that True Names isn't a virtue! However they do receive Arcane Lore for free.

So I can really see both sides, but as stated, really don't want to spend excess amounts of time debating how everything could work, especially with folks on both sides of the issues feeling as strongly as they do. Because one of the major points of contention for me, is the magical foci ( which y'all are still debating about ). As stated before, it seems obvious to me that certain Hedge Traditions which have 'Arts' not 'Accelerated Abilities' should be like the Vitkr and be able to use Foci. But could be debating for weeks and I'd much rather get into the game!

And I'm glad to see that you agree about the Foci deep down Marco! And as stated above, thats the thing that's really keeping me from playing the Sahir.