SPring of 1222, I thought.
D'Oh!! You are correct. My mind is scattered lately. Personal problems and such.
I think Estaban is ready to be posted to the Character Sheets thread. Am I correct?
Shouldn't this be constructed with the 'Sustain a spell cast by another' guideline instead? The item is not the orginal caster, it is sustaining an effect by a second party. It -definately- should be the other guideline to be used to sustain a spell by a third party.
I made the mistake here, as I designed the character. Either way, the math doesn't work. Level +2M equals 20, and half of the Level +5M equals 17.5. The Item should be base 25 instead. So the final level would be 50 instead of 35, which is out of his range. But he could ave had a Lab assistant, specialized lab, &/or a higher aura. So, since it is already in play (and since Isaac is a minor side character), I'll give this error a pass.
EDIT! Before reading this, please note that almost all of this is redundant as most of my issues have been addressed after reading Niall Christie's 5th Ed Sahir Rules. So, really, you can just read the intro!
Good evenin y’all! Just figured I’d make my introduction post while I tossed a bit of theory / questions around! And before ( Like our lovely ASG! ) you assume the worst of me due to my name, I promise that I am in fact Jewish and in the Military! Call signs like mine happen when you’re the only Jewish guy in the Squadron and a bunch of y’all get drunk and… well we won’t go there as I like the small amount of my pride that I have left!
So I plan on playing a Sahir. Our ASG has filled me in on a little bit of the story and I’ve read a fair amount ( to be fair, there’s a lot to read! ), so when I do post the back story it should mesh nicely. That said while I was reading over the Hermetic Sahir entry I came up with a few questions / points for discussion. Hopefully y’all can help me either solve some of the issues!
The first of which is, Sihr is a great ability and I love the fact that it allows you to bargain with your Jinn. It adds more opportunities for RP and encourages relationships between the Sahir and their Jinn. That said, it seems to be a very limited ability with a high cost. Now I’m not saying I should be able to summon up all manner of spirits or that it should be less complicated or the like, because that would just ruin the feel and flavor of the Sahir ( which is something that I just love ). Compared to the other summoning traditions or even basic Hermetic Spirit Mojo, Sahir just doesn’t have that “oomph” as it were.
One of the problems for Sahir is that Sihr is a single Accelerated Ability. That means that a Sahir ‘Caps’ as it were, very quickly compared to any of the other summoning traditions. For a Sahir, a Might 20-25 Jinn is among the highest that they will probably ever realistically hope to summon / bargain with, baring dumping obscene amounts of xp into Sihr. Compared to the other traditions this just feels very very weak, especially for a focused summoner. Because Jinn realistically get up to 50-60 might and being unable to even summon / bargain with over half of the creature you specialize in just feels wrong.
To compound this problem Sahir are the only summoners that must expend Vis to summon. Yes you can spend less, however to do so just destroys your totals ( which are already low compared to other summoners ) especially as you get into the higher might Jinn. And it doesn’t remove the fact that you must spend at least one pawn of vis to summon a Jinn, for no bonus at all. In fact you get no bonuses for spending vis, until you exceed the ‘mandatory’ amount. Until you reach that point, you are severely penalized. Don't get me wrong, I'm not kvetching about having to spend Vis, I'm just saying that for being a 'dedicated' summoner and having to spend Vis, the totals are low.
Sahir receive the mandatory Minor Magical Focus of Jinn during character creation. I was recently informed that said focus has no impact on your Sihr totals at all, which I must admit confuses me greatly. The explanation I received stated that there were things that you could do with Hermetic Magic that you just could not do with Sihr. This is completely true, but the only things I can think of are warding and actually forcing Jinn to do what you wish. Now the warding I can understand, however commanding is the part I have an issue with. In the Sahir write up it specifically differentiates between Hermetic Sahir and their Levant Cousins. It explains that Sahir in the Levant don’t need to bargain with their Jinn and can compel a number of powers from their Jinn ( Immortality, Teleportation, Healing, Magic Resistance just to name a few ). The minute I read this, it made me think of Goetia ( I do believe your local Goetist can shine some more light on this). Now I’m not trying to use the Goetia rules ( Since in the famous words of Monty Python “I told him we’ve already got one!” and I don’t want to step on any toes ) but when you look at what they are able to do, the similarities are striking! Also keep in mind, both traditions claim to be the ‘Heirs of Solomon’. Coincidence? I think not!
Back to my original point! I’ll save the discussion about “Levantine Sahir = Goetia?” for a later. Though seriously it does make a ton of sense ( Scuse me while I go put on my spiffy hat and drink the cool aid)... Right! Magical Focus! For really real this time, I promise! As you can see, the focus of Jinn restricts the Sahir from taking another focus and really doesn’t apply to much of anything that they will be using. As stated before, I can totally understand wards, however, binding and forcing Jinn just really isn’t their style. As the very least there is some semblance of negotiations that is happening ( even if the Sahir is just that much more powerful it is considered bad form not to ). So Sahir get a focus that is almost useless in their main ability and eats up their ‘free’ minor virtue at creation. Ummm what? Personally I feel that the focus should be applied to Sihr in some way, as correct me if I am wrong, Magical Focus apply to.. well any Magic, not just Hermetic. Granted since it is a single ability, so it begs the question of how the math would work… Maybe half of your art?
Now! On to even more stuff! I promise my rambling is close to being done ( Sort of… )! True names and the like! Now the rules are a tad nebulous and I got a bit confused ( It could be the fact that the AC is busted and it’s a cool 95 degrees here in my dorm room. G-d bless the LA summer heat.) but does penetration factor in to your summoning strength at all? If it doesn’t, it makes little sense. Because when you learn a being’s true name, the idea is that you can summon and exert an amount of control over it if needed. Let’s say you and I are in a negotiation and you know that I can make you do what I want, but instead I am kind enough to have a civil discussion and even pay you for your services, wouldn’t you receive me better? Also, see the previous paragraph about the Sihr 'Cap' ( By Cap, I dont mean an actual cap, but rather a practical one as there is a point where is just has too many diminishing returns to invest points ). The reason I bring up the 'Cap' is because given the Might 'Cap' of 20, it almost becomes pointless to gain a Jinn's True Name because someone with a decent penetration who is standing in said Jinn's haunt is going to be able to easily summon what amounts to the highest might Jinn a Sahir can summon (again 'highest' for all intents and purposes. There's nothing stopping someone from dropping 500xp into Sihr... )
This also brings up yet another point! Reputation! Let’s say I become known as a Sahir who keeps his bargains and is fair in negotiations. Would I receive some sort of bonus in either my negotiations or what have you? There was a game I was a member of that had such a rule in regards to reputation, turning them into something that was actually used in negotiations and the like, rather than just something used to go “Oh he does / doesn’t like you” and nothing comes of it. Cause if he does / doesn’t like you or whatever, there should be actual bonuses / penalties involved. I’ll see if I can dig up the rules, but at least it’s something to consider!
My last point ( ish) I promise (heh)! Now if a Sahir spends extra time doing his summon ( 15 min / + 2 / Extra Botch Dice – Least I think this is what it comes out to ) he receives a bonus. Now this represents the time that the Sahir has spent, double checking his notes, mentally preparing for the contest of wills etc. However, what this fails to take into account is preparation. Let’s say we have two Sahir, one spends an hour preparing, then draws a spiffy lil circle in the sand with his staff and summons up a Jinn. Now there other Sahir spends an hour preparing himself, but he’s doing this summon in a specially designed room, with a circle made of silver, inscribed with runes, adorned by gems etc. The rules as it stand don’t distinguish between the two and for all intents and purposes, there is no difference.
That’s just silly! I purpose one of two things. Either allowing Sahir to take a version of the Potent Magic virtue and apply 3+ or 6+ MT in shape and material bonuses when using ‘ritualized’ Sihr. or allow for the Ceremonial Casting rule . Now personally, the version of Potent Magic, makes much more sense to me, as we are talking about creating and using an actual item (IE we should get shape and material bonuses limited by knowledge of Magic Theory). Also, if you get a ‘Potent Magic’ virtue, then logically it would make sense for your Magical Focus to apply, since the two are so very similar. It basically says flat out that Lesser Potent Magic has the same guidelines as Minor Magical Focus. Ditto for Major Magical Focus and Greater Potent Magic. But as I’ve already discussed Magical Foci, I won’t go any further than to say, if you allow Potent Magic to apply to Sihr, Magical Foci should.
So I know I made y’all read a lot of stuff. And please don’t take this as me going “WAAAH I don’t wanna play a Sahir cause they suck!”. I’m really just a giant fan of the Sahir and feel that 3 pages doesn’t do them justice at all. So hopefully y’all can help me out by answering some questions and maybe working some of the kinks out of the system. That said, thanks again y’all and have a great night!
Welcome to the game.
More a question of trying to flesh out your character, but it needs to be asked from an IC perspective IMO: Why would your character wish to join a heavily christian/latin Covenant?
I'm all for fluff and flavour text. Just as long as we know how much XP we get for the dude on the motorcycle 
(Knights of the dinner table reference)
I'm not a rules inclined individual only having access to few books in this edition. As a hermetic sahir I take it you would be a tradition of House ex-miscellenea?
Thanks!
Well as to why my character would wish to join the covenant, there's more or less an easy enough answer. Forgive me as this is highly watered down... Estancia-es-Karida is a friendly neighboring covenant with a number of Hermetic Sahir. In fact I do believe they have an alliance with the Knights of Seneca. It's the whole Umayyads vs. Almohades bit. That said, its not that hard of a stretch from that point eh? Again, details once I have my character written up and I exactly what route I'm gonna take em.
Aye, Ex Misc. And like I said, they only gave em about 3 pages, which again I don't feel is nearly enough. -Grumbles about not getting a Sahir Entry in the Hedge Magic Book- And... I'll stop there before I go on a rant!
Edit:
Well I could have saved everyone a lot of time and problems by simply saying... I'd like to use Niall Christie's rules for 5th Ed Sahir located here: shrenewed.wetpaint.com/page/Fifth+Edition+Sahirs
Yes, I know. I wrote up a giant long rant about what I wanted to change and found pretty much everything I was asking for right there... durp. That'll teach me good! I went digging for more information after writing everything and found Niall's stuff, so like I said, teaches me to open my mouth before I've actually researched everything.
I like those rules regarding Sahir, mostly, but there are some issues that still linger.
As I understand the intent it is to make a Magus of Ex Misc. that is a practicing non-hermetic Sahir, and a member of the Order.
This will require some changes to the rules as presented.
One, the Sahir are written up as Companion level characters. Companions with the Gift, but companions none the less. It is highly debatable as to how one should upgrade them from companion to full mage slot power level. My first instinct is to make the character a 'mythic companion' style hedge wizard as from the Ex Misc description, but with the Gift. I am not certain if that is a perfect fit though. There may be power scaling issues, I'm not 100%. There are other areas that need consideration as well however.
One aspect of that is the apprenticeship. As an Ex Misc he would have customarily received the fifteen year standard apprenticeship and gotten an allotment of xps for that. ( I should think? )
Also I do not like how Sahir Summoning/Commanding subsumes an inferior version of Binding into itself without having to have a third Art for it. I would be in favor of removing that and requiring the full Binding Art/Virtue for Sahir. But that is my gut reaction to seeing something that, at first glance, looks like something for 'free'. But I could be mistaken.
All in all though I like the concept. I'm sure no one saw that one coming... 
I like Niall's Sahir rules, so I am all for it. I need to re-review them, as it has been a while since I read them.
What do the rest of you guys think?
IMO, your view is skewed. Let me explain:
- Might 50-60 is supposed to be really really powerful. The domain of archmagus like antonio. So, being unable to summon it is perfectly normal. Note that, with a hermetic summon spell, this'd require a casting total in the 90-100, while might 20 would ask for a CT of 60. Pretty high CT, IMO: This is 2 arts at 20, with an applicable focus.
- Might range is not linear, in that there are far far more low-level beasties than high dragons and demigods. So, being able to affect might <25 on a 1-50 scale doesn't mean being unable to summon half the creatures, far from it.
May I had that, what you MAY lack in power (compare to the hermetic totals above), you'll gain in flexibility?
Yes, this is strange. I'd make all summoning ritual, though.
But you can bypass this by using that insane RoP: Magic virtue that allows you to use fatigue as vis of a given form. This'd also be useful to you in other endeavours.
Focus don't apply to abilities, accelerated or not. Moreso, they require 2 arts, so even with an art + ability, it wouldn't work.
I'd probably allow you to take a different focus.
My feeling too
I agree with vortigern's other points, too, but mostly fear you'd be like "ludo 2", which would not be very interesting IMO, especially as, ludo having been granted things he shouldn't have been IN MY OPINION (like magical commanding), you'd probably be an inferior copy Hum... Have you considered Elementalists, from Hedge Magic? This is still summoning, but more original, and with different possibilities.
He really wants to play a Sahir, so a Sahir it shall be. He will be using Niall's rules for creating non-Hermetic Sahirs. I would point out that Ludo's Commanding is based of the Sahir commanding, not the Goetic version. I have tried to explain that before.
The non Hermetic Sahir is created like a Magis. With the Gift and his training, he recieves Sahir Summoning and Sahir Commanding plus the ability to use True Names. These don't require additional Virtues, since it is part of the "Sahir Bundle" he gets for free with his Gift (just as the Arts are part of the "Hermetic Bundle".
Do note that a Focus does not apply to Sahir Arts, onlt to Hermetic Arts which are used in pairs.
Also, a non-Hermetic Sahir has noParma Magica, something that you may want to think about.
First off, thanks for the response! I was thinking y'all had forgotten about me! 
That said, I would be alike to Vort in the sense that yes I am also a Spirit Mojo kind of guy and yes, both our traditions can trace our lineage back to Solomon and his arts. However, thats where the similarities would end! I'd be taking things like Divination, Periapts ( which are built into Sahir ) among other things. Yes we both are summoners, however I'd be focused almost entirely on Jinn, with the exception of the Planetary Spirits. Also, I'd technically be a Hedge Wizard! Granted, I'd still be a member of the Order. Also Sahir at the least pay lip service to Islam...So yes, we would share a few things. However I feel that a Sahir would be far from an inferior version of Vort, or even Vort 2!
Well now! Here's a laundry list of points, followed by some questions!
First of all, I'll be playing a Gifted Non Hermetic Sahir who is a member of Ex Misc. The idea is that he has stayed true to the 'True Teachings of Solomon' unlike other members of his tradition who have gone astray by becoming the Hermetic Sahir presented in the Ex Misc write up. So would I have Parma? As it says nothing about it requiring his arts to be unlocked. Also, he would have the typical apprenticeship of any Mage. However questions arise when you get to the 120 spell levels that said apprenticeship grants. Maybe convert them to xp at a 2 - 1 ration like Redcaps?
Now, I'd be using Niall's rules for Sahir. If you need to take a look at em, please do so! There's a link a few posts back. Now Vort brought up a good point. Niall wrote the Sahir as Companion Level Characters. Since I'd be using a Mage 'slot', how would we bring the Sahir up to par? I like his suggestion of treating my character as a Mythic Companion, just with the gift.
I also agree with Vort about the rules for Binding. I'd be more than willing to move the half baked rules for Binding from Commanding and make it a part of the Sahir Tradition. This would require them to spend xp in another Art to do their Binding, but grant them in a little more flexibility. Since we'd be removing it from Commanding ( which I receive for free ) in the interest of fairness I'd need to either initiate it sometime during my 20 years post gaunt or 'buy' it during character creation.
Speaking of Binding, there's a rule I'm not sure many of y'all are aware of. When you Bind a spirit into you, you can take advantage of its abilities over time. The character may spend experience on abilities that he shares with the spirit as if he had an affinity in that ability, provided the spirit has a greater score. It would be silly then, for any Sahir to not bind a spirit that had a better score than him in any ability he wished to study that season, swapping spirits as needed each season. While this is quite legal provided I wrote up a detailed character creation / list of my spirits, I wish to prevent screams of "OP!" and "Nerf it now!". So I would be willing to place a cap on the xp gained from this during character creation. I feel that since this is a major virtue and requires xp spent in an Art to even work, that it should be better than the limits we've place on our other two xp boosting virtues. However I leave this up to y'all!
There is something that I must disagree with Niall about. Under his rules, you can summon spirits from only the Faerie or Magic realm ( Being a Sahir, aligns you with them ). A Sahir should be able to include Divine / Infernal aligned Jinn, as there is precedence for this in BaS and HoH: S. It just seems to me, that a Sahir should be able to summon all kinds of Jinn, not just two. Granted the majority are Magical and Faerie aligned.
As for Magical Foci, I do believe that Hedge Wizards etc, should be able to benefit from said Virtue. There is precedence for Hedge Wizards taking the virtue, even in a single accelerated ability . I direct your attention to the Vitkr, who have Rune Focus, which allows them to double their score in the appropriate Art, when inscribing a rune in an appropriate material and the rune associated with their Focus. To me, that sets the precedent to allow Hedgies to use Magical Focus. For example, my Sahir could in theory use his Arts to summon up any spirit, but if he took a focus in Jinn, when he used any of his abilities on a Jinn, said art would double.
Now as a summoning type person, I'll be using a fair amount of Vis. That said, I plan on taking Personal Vis Source. Our ASG has told me that said Virtue, gives your 4 pawns of vis a year ( and while that number feels low to me, I'm not going to complain ). Now the question is, what kind of vis? Pvt or Pvf? As for my actual source, go read the Covenants book and look at the Parliament of Ghosts under Rego. I like the idea, except change it from Ghosts to Jinn and the type of Vis remains undecided at the moment.
Now this begs another question. During character creation and our 20 years post Gaunt, we are assumed to have enough vis to do whatever it is that we wish. Be it rituals, crafting items etc! So if we all have this 'invisible vis' as it were and it satisfies all our needs, would the vis from my virtue stockpile? I'm asking if I'd have 80 pawns of vis to do with as I wish during my 20 years, be it paying for enchanted items or rituals. I feel that saying "Nope, you spent a virtue on a Vis Source and don't get your Vis!" would be just silly, especially since we have characters who spent a large amount of Vis during their 20 years post Gaunt. So putting me level with folks who didnt a take virtue and saying you have no vis and no items / rituals would be just silly!
Now Fix, I really like your ideas for the extra time spent summoning. Granted those rules about spending extra time etc aren't present in Niall's rules and I think they should. But, I would like to see what y'all think of allowing some of Fix's ideas. I think that at the very least, shape / material bonuses limited by your Phi should be allowed, because as stated before, someone with an elaborate, dedicated summoning circle, should have some advantage over the guy drawing a circle in the sand. And I really need to use my 'lab' for something darn it!
Hrmmm that brings up another question! Sahir have the ability to create periapts. Now if Binding is removed from Commanding and a Sahir takes the full version, then they would gain the ability to create permanent enchanted items. Now the Goetia rules for Binding state that it acts as an anchor of sorts for other infernal effects. Now in the Sahir version, obviously it wouldnt be infernal, so the question becomes, if they bound a spirit using Binding and spent a season 'opening up' the item as it were, what kind of effects would you be able to cast into it? I would argue, anything covered by their Periapts...
Then this begs another question! Assuming I took a few ranks in Magic Theory and created a lab, would I be able to apply any of my specializations in said lab to Periapt / Bound Spirit item creation?
Anyway y'all, I've got a pounding migraine, so I'm gonna scoot on outa here. Lookin forward to seein y'alls responses! Thanks and y'all have a great night! Or mornin for our European brethren!
Edit:
Also, about the reputation thing! I'm glad you agree Fix! I think adding ( or subtracting ) your reputation into any social rolls that you make involving someone who would know it / you would be a very good thing. I think this would actually cause the reputations to be useful, rather than being nothing more than ill defined things for rp. Curious what everyone else thinks.
Actually, you just need to be member of the order and gifted to get Parma. It won't be as good as hermetic magus since you have no arts to add to the parma but you can still have parma.
(You really only need to be gifted but if you have parma and aren't member of order, the order hunts you down and kills you.)
Aye, thats what I thought. Got thoughts on anything else we brought up? Trying to get everyone's input and all that!
You should not be able to summon divine aligned Djinn. Creatures of divine might are God's and generally can't be summoned or controled or forced to act in any way against God's will.
Infernal is a realm you aren't aligned to and do you really want to get involved in infernalism in the first place?
Actually, I do believe Angels are the only creatures aligned with the Divine realm that are flat out immune to summoning / commanding and the like, but feel free to show me if I'm wrong! I think you're referencing the 'Angels and Magic' section of RoP: D? Jinn are not born aligned to a specific realm, as stated earlier, they are another race and capable of choice. Here's the exact quote about em outa HoH: S.
"When G-d made the world, he made three groups of being endowed with intelligence. The Angels he made from light, the Jinn were made from raw elemental matter ( called the smokeless fire or aether ) and mankind was made from clay. A jinn is a spiritual reflection of man; like him they are capable of both salvation and damnation."
So all this makes me think that Jinn are like... say a Horse with Divine Might, or a Character with Holy Magic. If I can penetrate their MR with an appropriate spell that forces them to do something, they do it! And to be totally fair, Sahir like to bargain with their Jinn rather than just force them to do what they want. Thats a good way to get a bad rep...
As for getting involved in Infernalism, I'd be remiss if I didn't flush out all the rules for Sahir before play started, regardless of what my intentions may be during play.
If GIJoo doesn't mind being Ludo #2 or a different flavour of it it's up to him really. So long as like Fixer said, it's kept in check, I have no issue.
There are no Divine Jinn. They are all Magic, Faerie, or Infernal. It breaks down like this: Magic Jinn either don't care about the divine or give mere lip service to the Prophets (Jesus is considered a Prophet in Islam). The Magic Jinn are usually Pagan, and do things sucgh as eat pork and drink wine. Faerie Jinn are either pro Divine or Anti-Divine. Pro-Divine Jinn can be of any Divine based religon (though they are usually Moslem), and feel that it is their purpose to aid and assist humanity, drawing their vitality from the storys of their involvment. Faerie Jinn that are opposed tto the divine feel that their purpose is to test and try humanity,, or simply be malicious towards them. The Jinn that are truely Infernal, the Sons of Ilbis and such, seek to corrupt humanity.
As for realms, if you have a Might score, that categorizes you definitively. All those with a Divine Might score are Angels or Saints. There are no Divine Horses, and you cannot summon & control saints. All those with a Faerie Might are simply Faeries, all beings with Infernal Might are automatically Demons, and all those with Magic Might are Magical beings.
I suppose you could have Parma, yess, since you are a Ex-Misc hedge wizard member of the Order from Estancia Escarida. However, you do not recieve the xp & spells from Hermetic Training. You simply use the creation rules that Niall provided to advance yourself to the desired age (you still have the 10xp per year on average).
You cannot bring them up to par. You are not a Hermetic Magus, therefore you will always be an inferior hedgie. You need to come to grips with this. Niall's design is for a Hedge Wizard character, not a companion. You do not have to spend Virtue points to gain your Summoning/Commanding/True Names. This is part of your package.
You are using rules modifications as it is. I do not with to further modify them.
I am not sure whatyou are getting at, but I do not see the need for any artificial caps.
I already dealt with this in an earlier post. There are no Divine Jinn. You can get involved with Infernal Jinn, but according to Niall'srules, this will lead to Corruption.
No
Rune Magic is different, which is why it was so important to wipe them out.
I will allow 3 pawns of Technique or 6 pawns of a Form.
You can stockpile a portion of it, since you wuld probably used most of it.
I don't want to modify Niall's rules just yet.
No modifications to the special non-cannon rules please 
And Magic Theory only applies to Hermetic Magic.