I'm inventing a more powerful (read: larger, not better) version of the spell: The Earth’s Carbuncle (ArM156).
The original spell turns earth to jagged stone 'just under the surface' within a 1-pace circle. Individual for stone is 1 cubic pace so assuming that the inventor 'used up' the entire cubic pace this spell affects earth in a depth of just over one pace. That sounds like a bit much though based on the discription, a discriptions that IMO reads something more like half of that depth - or even just a quarter... So maybe there's reason to believe that the original spell went for a 1-pace circle for design reasons - making it easier to use in combat without hitting unintentional targets; instead of just using up the entire cubic pace.
I'd like to make an identical spell (lets call it The Earth’s Mighty Carbuncle) save for a changed are of affect. Adding +1 magnitude for size should give me 10 times the mass > 10 cubic paces of stone. Using a 'depth' of a little more than 1 pace (strict reading) gives a maximum area of a circle that is 3-3½ paces across. Using just half a pace depth as a guideline increases the circle diameter to about 5 paces. While the actual difference might not be striking, in a battle it might mean hitting 4 opponents rather than 1, while in other situations make it practically useless since you cannot help but targeting allies as well as enemies.
Assuming you guys would accept such a spell (which I'd assume most would) would the damage range remain? We target a larger area of ground, creating more shards - but they are also divided over a larger area, so damage might remain at +10. Or is the damage potentially lower since the amount of sharp spikes is to be spread over more targets, effectively making the damage dependent on the number of hit targets? Or would you decide to increase the damage dealt - for stronger thrusting power, larger amount of spikes and more earth flung away - proportionally with the added magnitude.
It's not entirely clear what a "1-pace circle" means. Does it mean diameter, radius, or circumference?
For what it is worth, if you read 1-pace circle to mean a circle with a radius of 1 pace, you are looking at a cylinder of stone 0.32 paces deep (i.e. about a foot deep).
True. It is unclear. So far I've read it as 1 pace across (diameter). But that's my interpretation. I don't believe the book has ever used circumference, so I'd rule that one out without to much fuss - but I get your point If we assume that it's actually a 1 pace radius then we are much closer to what I read from the discription of the spell (with one third of a pace being right between my suggested 'half-pace' and 'quarter-pace'). The maximum area for the spell would then be a 3 pace-circle (6 paces across that is).
Ring (Duration) and Circle (Target) involves the circumference. When casting a such effects you need to trace out the circumference at a rate of 10 paces per round.
However, I think you are quite right, Earth's Carbuncle probably doesn't mean circumference. A 1 pace circumference circle would only be about 1 foot in diameter, and (if it has a volume of 1 cubic pace) would be a cylinder 12.5 paces deep --- which certainly doesn't seem consistent with the spell description.
A 1 pace circle is probably 1 pace diameter (this means about 1 meter or 1 yard across and 1 pace/yard deep. This is actually slightly less than a cubic pace since the rounding of the corners saves area. (about .79 cubic paces of area actually).
Sorry if I gave you the impression that I don't know what a pace is in relation yards or meters, or sounded like I did not know how to calculate the surface area of a circle In fact, I do. Thats excactly what lead me to ask the questions in the OP. If you're right, that it actually is 1 pace diameter (very likely, but do you have anything to base the 'probably' on - any previous wordings?), we're are talking an area of precisely "1/4 Pi" square paces of area.
What I don't really get is how you use the 1 pace diameter to calculate the actual depth of about 1 pace, and then alter the calculation to .79 cubic paces... wasn't your depth based on reaching 1 cubic pace in total?
Anyway, I'm more interested in what do you think about the area/dept in relation to the spell? Does it sound reasonable?
ACtually, I did not calculate it based on reaching a perfect 1 cubic pace in area and I am not sure that the magi that created the spell would have thought in those terms.
The logic is 1 pace across circle and 1 pace deep, that this is not a perfect 1 cubic pace, oh well.
Take Pit of gaping earth for example
Base for earth is 10 cubic paces and +1 size for that spell would be 100 cubic paces but the pit is 6 paces across and 3 paces deep or only about 85 cubic paces.
Spells should be about as close to the proper size. so for your earth Carbuncle to make it bigger, I would go either 3 paces across since that is how people would generally think, not I can go 3.56 paces across to get my maximum area of effect. (Maybe 3 1/2 paces but 3 even makes more sense).
That is a circle 9' in diameter and more than able to catch 3-4 people close together, perhaps even more (do it before line of foot soldiers 2-3 deep and you can easily catch 8-12 people)
I totally agree. I actually mentioned the part about 'not using the entire cubic foot' in the OP. And I used rounded numbers like 3 and 5 paces in my suggestions as well. You were the one going 'point-o-seven-nine'
Yup, area of effect is potentially very usefull, thus this spell design My character needed and spell to take care of several opponents at onceregardless of gear, size, form etc.
In general, I think the worst mistake one can make is attempt to apply strict geometric principles to spell design in ArM. The size modifiers make no sense (consider, for example, that the rules say that a Structure can be anywhere from a hut to a castle, but is also exactly 10 Rooms), the conversion from pace to foot to meter is haphazard, the difference between spell sizes and creature sizes, etc, etc.
If you want the Earth's Mighty Carbuncle to affect a group's worth of area, then you need to make the same magnitude adjustment as if you were targeting a Group rather than an Individual. Whether you call that a Size increase or a change in target is irrelevant.
If you want it to do more damage, than that is a different modification which adds a different set of magnitudes. A single magnitude increase should not increase both area of effect AND damage.
I concur. In essence you should 'pay for' all of the effects of the spell, and not try to 'cheat your way to free powers'. But if I felt that a spell that affected a larger area was supposed to deal more damage, I still believe it should. I would then add another +1 magnitude to increase the damage to match the power fo the spell. I believe the feel of the spell should be right.
While I do understand your idea of added size versus Group target, I do not agree with your conclusion. Many spells that use indirect targeting increase the area of effect without following the target categories of Ind-Part-Group. Note also that there is nothing limiting the original spell from targeting several victims, as long as they are within the '1-pace circle' - whatever that is excactly. On the other hand, although the original spell uses target Individual it might not be enough to fling a very large target into the air or hitting them with flying debris proporly. Imagine using the spell on a a great beast of a wurm, laying flat on the ground with its huge body.
IMO adding +1 magnitude for Size seems like the right way to go, to target a larger area - be that for attacking larger targets, a different kind of target, or more targets.
Ah-ha! Found one of my assumptions: I assume that a 1-pace circle means "roughly the space a single Size 0 person can occupy."
....which further goes to my point. The spell should actually be target:Part, since it is affect a part of the ground. But it's not, it is targeting the earth underneath a specific Individual (which is why no Finesse roll is required).
You arguments make a lot of sense. Allow me to sum up what i understand from it.
You would not allow a variation of this spell, that affects a larger area of ground. The only variant (size-wise) that would grant me your conscent would be to increase 'Individual' to 'Group' - targeting a number of 1-pace circles each belonging to one of several victims forming that Group. So no large circle, but several small ones. No magnitudes for Size, but +2 magnitudes to reach Group. I could imagine my Magus naming it 'Charge of the Angry Moles'.
But what happens if I want to attack a beast of Size +4 with this spell? A Perdo Animal spell would require an additional magnitude for Size to target such a creature, but what happens here? Do we add extra magnitudes or not? Does the 1-pace circle increase?
Anyway, it seems different Troupes would accept different versions of this spell. Nice to know.
The arguments make a lot of sense. Allow me to sum up what i understand from it.
You would not allow a variation of this spell, that affects a larger area of ground. The only variant (size-wise) that would grant me your conscent would be to increase 'Individual' to 'Group' - targeting a number of 1-pace circles each belonging to one of several victims forming that Group. So no large circle, but several small ones. No magnitudes for Size, but +2 magnitudes to reach Group. I could imagine my Magus naming it 'Charge of the Angry Moles'.
But what happens if I want to attack a beast of Size +4 with this spell? A Perdo Animal spell would require an additional magnitude for Size to target such a creature, but what happens here? Do we add extra magnitudes or not? Does the 1-pace circle increase?
Anyway, it seems different Troupes would accept different versions of this spell. Nice to know.
It is the same case as with CrIg. The target is the earth/stone. The fact that there is a poor dude on top of the exploding ground is cursory to the spell working or not. It would work regardless. In fact it is a good tilling spell. Make a field explode with a few castings and there you go with a nice agricultural spell.
I'm just saying that there will be a demand for mine sweeping in some 700 years. And that this spell could be used for it. I'm not going to invent a spell to create 'mines' so as to create a fake demand for hermetic mine sweeping. Easier ways to earn money than that
I'm just saying that there will be a demand for mine sweeping in some 700 years. And that this spell could be used for it. I'm not going to invent a spell to create 'mines' so as to create a fake demand for hermetic mine sweeping. Easier ways to earn money than that
Incorrect. I would require a spell covering a larger area of ground to have the same magnitude increase as going from Ind to Group. A +1 size increase would affect roughly half a group (and if my player starts telling me how many people are in a Group, then I invite him to join someone else's campaign).
An interesting variation that speaks directly to why I would make such a requirement, but my point is thematic, not mathematical. If he wanted the +1 "half-group" increase mentioned above, then in my saga, that spell would require Finesse rolls, or otherwise be a different "feeling" spell.
Again, in my saga (and I play with several people who would violently disagree with me) A 1-pace circle is still going to be a 1-pace circle. If using this spell to attack a Size+4 beast, it will cause a 1-pace circle (Size 0) area of ground beneath the creature to explode, causing damage as specified in the rules. The change in Size is accompanied by shifts in Soak, Stamina, etc that account for any other changes that need to be made.
The spell is still targeting the ground, it's just using the T:Individual for placement.
In fact, I do. Thats excactly what lead me to ask the questions in the OP. If you're right, that it actually 
