Elemental Magic: Transforming Air

I left it out because it's completely irrelevant to the argument. Taking a set of examples and trying to determine the rule from them is inductive reasoning and can never prove the rule. Add to that the statement that Auram spells usually deal with a phenomenon, and you should specifically expect most examples you find to be about phenomena. So that statement essentially says that you if you look at a bunch of example spells, you will probably only find phenomena even though that is not a restriction on Auram - in essence pointing out that using just a few examples to determine the rule is faulty.

Why only look at MuAu? Why not look at other Auram examples? How about Perdo Auram? Is Room of Stale Air not a valid core spell because it targets the air as opposed to a phenomenon? It doesn't make a breeze stuffy and uncomfortable, nor rain, nor the other targets in the MuAu spells, just the regular air as a gas. Noting that there actually is an example of a core book spell that treats air as a gas while there are many more examples that treat air as a phenomenon, we can see exactly what I stated above about using just a few examples.

To make the assumption you must trash the very sentences that tell you to use the things you're referencing, so I don't consider that a vaguely reasonable stance at all, let alone the most reasonable.

Targeting a Part of the air is just like targeting a Part of the ground. This is exactly what allows you to work with parts of the ground. The normal description works, so it "can, of course, be used."

Yes, I should submit that. I have a few more elsewhere, too. Speaking of errata, your analysis of the MoH errata.. I have submitted over half the items in the errata, and that includes nearly every one of the items for MoH. None of mine for MoH and, as far as I can spot, none of the others has anything to do with violating a guideline. They're nearly all miscalculations or misquotes. I'm not saying you're wrong about some being questionable, but citing the errata to back you up on this seems questionable, too. Can you tell me which questionable use of a guideline in MoH was removed in the errata?

callen, this is getting nowhere. I stated my position.

Auram in the corebook is repeatedly presented as affecting air phenomena, to the point that Individual and Group targets refer to phenomena. It seems reasonable that Part should also be Part of a phenomenon then, but if you want to claim otherwise because it's not spelled out explicitly, then look at the general definition of Part: "The spell can affect a part of a discrete thing, such as a person’s arm or a section of the ground." I fail to see what the discrete thing would be when turning a "volume of air" into fire.

This is the general rule. I agree there may be a very few specific exceptions. There are none in the Muto Auram spells presented in the corebook. You want to look at all Auram spells in the corebook? Fine. There are 32 Auram spells, and only 2 possible exceptions: Eyes of the Bat (InAu), and Room of Stale Air (PeAu). I say "possibl"e, because it's not 100% clear to me that they are clear-cut exceptions: Room of Stale Air affects all breathing in a Room, so it can be seen as affecting a phenomenon, for example. But as I said, I agree that there may be a few specific exceptions, and I pointed out an additional one that I would allow myself: detecting if air in a certain place was safe to breathe. However, non-phenomena Auram effects are clearly exceptional cases, and I maintain that each troupe should assess whether to allow them or not on an individual basis. I would disallow turning a random volume of "thin air" into fire, or into solid armour.

As I said, others may disagree. I find it rather rude to say "ignore X's comment" when X is contributing constructively to a forum. I certainly find not constructive to continue this discussion, so do not take it as rudeness on my part if I stop posting in this thread :slight_smile:

I didn't mean to be rude. From the OP a canon spell was referenced, and he asked for how it could be used and about designing spells off of it. Your first reply was that his spells designed off of an accepted (by him at the very least, plus it's still in canon) spell shouldn't work because they don't use Auram targets properly even though they do so exactly as this canon and accepted spell does. Your opinion directly contradicts canon examples, and others can't even follow the logic even when canon examples it contradicts are ignored. You're welcome to house-rule out effects like that spell, but given that it's accepted by him he's certainly not doing so. Why bring in something directly disagreeing with the rules he's using instead of answering his question about if he's built the spells properly? In your later post you even acknowledge it's a house rule that you were using to guide him. I was trying to alleviate the confusion about this house rule being brought in as it hadn't been stated as a house rule at the time at all.

The designed spells follow the existing idea (T: Part to get some of the air near the caster) well. SEE and Ezechial357 addressed most the other design issues well. I was later and could really only add a comment about the standard use of Rego as a requisite to move an effect with a non-Target target.

Can I just point out a few things?

Lungs of the fish does not turn water into a phenomena - it turns water into air, so air itself appears to be valid.

The problem with Ars Magica affecting air is that it is very hard to perceive. You can see fog, clouds etc. But you cannot see the air around a person.
You can use T:Part to only affect part of something - but you must be able to perceive the thing you want to target part of.

T:Room spells get around this by targeting everything in the room. T:Circle can do it too.

If you use some type of spell which let you sense the air, then you would have no problem with the previously mentioned spells.
You can use Eyes of the Bat, or something like this

See the currents of the air
InAu 25
R:Personal, D:Concentration, T:Vision
You perceive the air itself as a colour of your choice. You can see how it moves in breezes, how it curls around objects. Darker colours mean the air is thicker there, such as a strong wind.
Base 4, +1 Conc, +4 Vision

After reading through several sections of A&A I think I would agree with Fafnir for how it is interpreted. But that does not mean that you could not change air into fire but I am not sure of the effect. Looking at the Consequences of Alteration (pg25) seems to say that you could not do it or it would not do anything. Easier to CrIg.

Looking at Meteorology (pg28) shows all the things you could do with air as effects that already happen.

Going further to pg41you can use Aurum to give people diseases or make them healthier.

If you want to effect weather phenomena then CrAu a large amount of fog/mist then turn it in to fire or stone.

Air is elemental matter, and while it is dealt with as phenomena (wind, cloud, vapor, smoke), those phenomena are parts of the overall substance. Among the phenomena of air is still air (by which I mean unmoving and passive air), and some reflection by a Hermetic magus may lead to an observation that creatures in air are much as creatures in water (as fish or kelp or other submarineans) or creatures in earth (as moles or worms or other subterraneans). A magus in water may transform water into an object, a magus in a mine or cavern may transform stone into some object, and a magus in air may transform air into something else.

However, it occurs to me that it may be difficult to distinguish an amount (that is, an Individual amount) of water or air or earth when surrounded by a vast undifferentiated mass of it. Here, dealing with a discrete phenomena (a wind, a current, a vein of metal or a gemstone) seems much more practical.

So, first, find the appropriate target of the element you are starting with. You want to turn some of the air in a room into armor? All right, you are turning Part of a mass of still air into metal.

I hope this has been contributory.

But how much air are you turning into armor? If we go by remotely modern physics, it takes a lot of air to equal the mass of a suit of iron. AM5 isn't always friendly to modern science though, so maybe that's the wrong approach.

I've long been wary of the approach some take of letting Muto effectively substitute for Creo with the "I turn the Air into X!" trick. Canon spells seem to support this though.

Eyes of the Bat senses air, not wind/clouds/whatever.
Room of Stale Air affects the air in the room. Despite the statement above, it's momentary and yet it still works if no one is in the room and it's sealed and then someone walks in much later and takes a breath. This doesn't work to target a breath if the magic has ended and the breath won't happen for a long time.
Conjure from the Mist works on a small section of air, not needing wind/clouds/whatever. Claiming the name means it must come from mist instead of air instead of someone just choosing a clever name would mean things like Infernal Smoke of Death should be non-Hermetic or at least tainted in some way, and you can find all sorts of things like that.

So that's two core book spells and one from MoH that I found. Definitely a minority of the spells, but with two right out of the core book plus the core book explicitly calling out air as a ubiquitous element and only saying "usually" for the phenomena instead of "always" or similar, we can see it is accepted in canon.

I found Sulfurous Membrane (Hermetic Projects p.84). This is just like the OP's Lungs of the Land but uses a Corpus requisite to deal with keeping the effect with the person. Same magnitude as adding a Rego requisite, but maybe your Corpus is better as a requisite.

Well, if we look at MuCo, Muto doesn't seem to care much about mass. Otherwise growing, turning into all sorts of animals, etc. doesn't really work. How big a clump of mist do you have a person become via Cloak of Mist?

Hermetic magic does nod toward conservation of mass, very much in a "Hi there!" kind of way.

MuAu Lvl 4: Transform an amount of air into another element, p. 127.

P 125: An amount of air is (somewhat unclearly) one cloud, one wind, one bolt of lightning, or in general a weather phenomenon affecting the area within a standard Boundary, an area one hundred paces across.

So, basically, you start with a pretty massive amount of air. I imagine people's ears will pop as the spell condenses a lot of air.

Air into Armor (because that's what sticks in my mind): Turning an amount of air into an amount of metal. Based on the Terram amount description on p. 152, I'll claim that that's roughly a one-to-one transformation, so a one hundred pace volume of air becomes roughly enough metal to make a suit of armor.*

MuAu Base 4: +2 Sun, req Te: A level 10 spell to transform air to metal.

The spell also has to work the metal into armor - that is surely worth +1 or +2 magnitudes. Armor requires great effort and is quite intricate - compare the Creo Animal guidelines for creating a leather jacket or woolen tunic (p. 116). So, at least level 20, and I may be overlooking something.

I make no claim about the validity of any published spells, pro or con. As I said, I may be overlooking something.

*this is grossly over massed - 1 cubic meter of air is about 1.2kg. If you take 100 meters as roughly the same as 100 paces (dubious) this works out to 1.2 million kg, or over 2,600,000 lbs. ArM magic does not chart to physics well. It's a game, though.

Changing air to metal is different than changing it to a finished project. From A&A pg 25:

This could be another way to skin the cat as a CrTe would create a perfect suit of armor. Could MuAu(Te) do the same? I would think it would need a lot of finesse if allowed. I would say not but you could turn a volume of fog/wind/rain into a big block of metal.

You can turn a person's mind into a bird via Muto. It has the category of bird, but it still has an essential nature of a human mind, which is why its body could be attacked with Mentem.

You can turn air into stone stairs, stone bridges, etc. Stairs, bridges, etc. are finished products, not merely blocks of stone. Complex shapes require higher Finesse rolls.

Why can air not become armor? It has the category of armor and the essential nature of air, so it could be destroyed via direct PeAu, while normal armor could not be, for example. Yes, armor can be pretty complex so there would probably be a somewhat significant Finesse roll required. Perhaps extra magnitudes for complexity?

A MuAu(Te) to turn the Air unto metal with a Re prereq to manipulate the metal via craft magic. Making a mail shirt would be average work that normally takes a month (12+3) for a finesse roll of 15

So my guess would be base 5 R: Touch, D: Con, T: Part Te and Re requ MuAu(ReTe)30 with a finesse roll of 15+
vs
base 5 R:Voice D: con, T ind CrTe 20

It would work and would be another way to skin a cat.

I don't see the need for the Rego requisite. Magnitudes for complexity, sure. But other spells don't seem to use a Rego requisite that way.

Which other spells create something without creo into a finished product?

Well, there is the very spell used in the OP to design these: Conjure from the Mist. And there are more, like Remake the Tailor's Craft. We're looking for Muto spells, of course, since you want non-Creo and the point is not needing Rego. I don't have time to search lots of books, though.

I see turning simple and undifferentiated air into simple and undifferentiated stone as relatively easy; into roughly worked stone a bit harder, and into carved statues harder yet. Air into worked metal armor is quite a few steps.

Switching one form to another should include a degree of flexibility in the final shape, as this is the declared purpose of the spell. As long as the spell is creating a specific object or thing. Air to a plant is fine and declaring the type and shape of the plant is reasonable at base.
Then modifying for complexity in shape seems appropriate.
I see the complexity as quasi- geometric shapes (+0 mags) like lines, cubes, boxes, or walls. Exploiting a feature of the new material should be free too - like using a plant to create a natural shelter.
The allowing sub-shapes in the main shape (1) like windows, basic stairs, spikes. Then almost any other ordinary detail (2). Then finally very ornate details as (3) like artwork, .
Having the additional mags should allow forgiveness in the Finesse church but not remove a basic "fit for purpose" check.
So a basic sword is +1, and a full suit of armour might be +2.
Then add mags for flexibility in choice of form when casting. Like making a dagger, knife, and sword which is serviceable chosen at cast time.

I remember that when Silvery Scales of the Knight was brought to 5th Ed, it was pointed out that the armour had to be made and then put on. That the finesse rolls to have it appear on you were way too high. The SSofK description in HoH:TL p37 mentions putting it on - which to me, means that it appears in front of you, not on you.

There was a discussion on the forum a while back which I think applies to this project.

https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/magic-tools-in-the-laboratory/8469/1

Creating armour with Creo doesn't need much in the way of finesse. Using muto to change air into armour would require a good finesse or you would just end up with pieces of oddly shaped metal.

I think the discussion about if air itself, without air phenomena around, is still a valid target is missing a Criamon magi, who probably would start talking about Empedocles:

I sounds to me that Empedocles developed among others the Art of Auram, and having proved that air is something, he probably made sure this art could affect it even when there aren't mists or lightnings around.