Consensus Building on Magically Created Food

[YR7]

Alright, let's settle this once and for all.

This issue has been discussed at length previously. I think the best discussion is on The forgotten Spells thread. Other relevant threads are Creo cheese, and To paradigm or not to paradigm.

There are several issues here:
* What do the RAW say?
* What's the effect on someone that eats (only) magically created foods? Is he nourished?
* What happens when the effect's duration ends? Does he die?
* What about other techniques besides Creo?
The poll is about the second and third point: how nourishing is magically created food ought to be, and what's the effect of stopping such a diet ? But don't answer until you've exhausted the discussion, and am certain of your position.

Of course, the question is only about food NOT created by a momentary Creo ritual. I assume we all agree that food created by a momentary Creo ritual is nourishing and perfectly natural. The argument is about the status of food created with some other Creo spell, or by other (Hermetic) means.

The RAW
The relevant pieces of RAW seem to be
* "...magical food created only nourishes for as long as the duration lasts, and someone who has eaten it becomes extremely hungry when the duration expires." from the Creo guidelines, and
* "Any food created is nutritious only if the creation is a ritual" from the Creo Herbam guidelines, ArM5 p. 136.

Based on these quotes, I think the RAW simply contradicts itself on the matter. A generous interpretation is to read the second passage as "...[permanently] nutritious...", in which case the RAW says the following:
* When someone persists on a diet of magicaly created food, he will be sustained and nourished by it for as long as the food's duration lasts.
* Upon the end of the food's duration, the nutrience derived from such food will be lost, leaving the person extremely hungry. (Not dead.)

But others say my interpretation is wrong. For example,

The RAW, with Ravenscroft help and sharp eyes, state explicitly that non-ritual food is not nourishing (p. 77 and p. 136)

The Metagame Arguments
Furion eloquently noted on the creo-cheese thread that

... most importat is the playability and that the scientific argument "should take a back seat to playability and fun". That being said I still relish in having paradigm-based arguments in place for what is chosen out of playability - but more as a way of keeping the setting colourful.

I think the key arguments along these lines are as follows:

It's just not fun, IMO, to have someone who has lived off magical food for ages to become dead when his raw vis runs out, or for someone that's been living on created air to suffocate. I prefer to have the person be suddenly very hungry or short of breath, but not dead.

My reason for keeping it non-nourishing is to maintain a situation of limited ressources. Being very powerful is what playing a magus is about. Being very powerful is fun. But having limitless ressources on the other hand is dull. Having limited ressources creates conflicts of interest - conflicts of interest creates amble opportunity for interesting plots, themes and scenes.
...
I agree [with YR7's point above] - both on the other hand this would only happen if the magus didn't know of this, which he of course would (or someone really ought to spank his pater), or rather that the player didnt know this from the outset. The remedy for this is ensuring that the players know. Then there is the horribly cartoonic possibilty of "assasination by prolonged exposure to magical created non-permanent food" Twisted Evil Shocked Twisted Evil , where someone would suddenly cash in his chips. I'd rather avoid that as well (except if I had a really interesting plot in the drawer based on it) and make it impossible by not postponing the lack of nourishment untill the end of magic but before that. For example by letting Creo-food taste well and give the feel of substance in the belly but then let the character become hungry again rather soon.

Almost every rule seems to close and open story opportunities, doesn't it?

If a magi didn't have to worry about food and air in a situation, then the problem becomes does he want to live forever trapped in a dank cave with nothing to do (except wait for his Longevity potion to fail).

If a country side is dying due to famine do the magi give up a bunch of their study time to cast enough spells for everybody or do they create resentment that their grogs grow fat while the peasants starve?

If a covenant has been living off of magical food, what happens when the magi who has been providing it goes into twilight or some other debilitation? I think there's a better story in 20 starving grogs than 20 instantly dead ones.

Or they simply die in an instant : /

I like that image too - as long as I am not one of those poor grogs - but I am still sceptical. I still think it could be abused, not neccesarily by the players (but just as well feeling that being able to make food without vis would have been used on a larger scale at some time, sooner or later, and lead to events in ME on a larger scale - it simply imposes on my vision of ME as a at times struggling poor existence for the majority of people), and that it needs some limit.

Gargantua is quite happy. He has gotten Magus Alcofribas Nasier of Jerbiton to fill his larder with enormous quantities of the finest delicacies. In fact, he has spent the greatest part of the last month pigging out in his cellar. Strangely, although he's been eating and eating and eating, he never feels quite full. "So much the better", he exclaims, "that way I still have room for more!"
Sadly, good things never last and the rising full moon brings an end to the feast. Just as he was about to bite in a nice piece of ham, a horrific stomach cramp makes Gargantua wince. When he opens his eyes, the ham is gone, and so are most of the foodstuffs that filled his pantry. Weakened by hunger pangs that refuse to subside, Gargantua crawls towards a barrel which he hope has been spared by this curse that has suddenly befallen him. Luckily for him, the barrel is indeed full, although oats make for a quite miserable fare for one who has grown accustomed to fine ambrosia. Unable to think about anything but food, Gargantua digs in head first.
Two days and three barrels later, he finally stagger out of the cellar, dazed by the amount of food he managed to inhale in such a short time, and substantially wiser about those treacherous devil worshippers that call themselve Hermetic Magi.


Magically created food works well to complement real food during a feast, but your grogs aren't going to appreciate being "fed" that way. After the first time you reduce them to devouring their own boots, they are going to be rather suspicious of any food you conjure for them. Expect a loyalty drop.

... my main reason for having a strict view on the non-nourishment of non-ritual food is a matter of setting integrity. I think a ME where someone could make food/nourishment without being dependent on vis would look very very different. A medieval setting is basically a world where there is a narrow divide between prosperity and a year of poor agricultural yeilds resulting in famine and wants. Even in time of prosperity the economics of the covenants would be remarkably different if they could do so. Stories come from limited ressources - in the real world as well as in a fictive world there would be much fever conflicts if there where no limits on ressources. Food isnt just food - it is a vital part in economy, and thus the availability of food also influences what the covenant can use on defenses, buildings, soldiers, specialists, weapons, lab equipment, books - you name it! Limits in ressources make conflicts, add to motivations and underlines many stories - whether in the foreground or not.

See, imo, this whole "no vis, no nourishment" thing is digging a big hole that the above is pointing at. The whole idea is breaking the Medieval Paradigm, if at the same time patching a broken part of the rules.


Something burnt by Magical fire is still burnt after the fire is gone. Something squashed by a magically conjured rock is still squashed after the rock disappears. An item scarred by magical acid, likewise.

So long as the change is enacted by a magically created or altered substance or item, and not affected by magic itself (Muto, Rego), it seems that this holds true.
...
Ergo, items and substances interact "normally" (read "as expected") with magically created items and substances, and retain their last state after that magical item is removed from the equation. (Tho' what happens in the time that follows would be a natural progression from that point onward, re healing, further deterioration, whatever.)
...
Keeping that Paradigm in mind, and how the ME world "sees" things, "water" is pissed out again after a half day or so, so maybe water with any duration longer than 12-24 hours serves its purpose and works just fine to quench thirst.

Food is similarly expelled in a day or so, so maybe any food with a duration longer than a couple days is likewise perfectly functional to achieve what we, today, call "nutrition". After it's gone, it's gone - 100% past tense, no metabolism to worry about, no "calorie absorption" or "vitamin intake" or other "long duration" effects. You eat, you crap, the food's done its job, the "nourishment" has already occurred, when do we eat next?

The only question, then, is whether that breaks the game, whether "making food" then becomes far too easy. But, by the Paradigm and the RAW, it strikes me that the above is how it "should" work.

Cuchulainshound you raise some interesting questions in your post - for sake of brevity I haven't included it all.
...
The RAW, with Ravenscroft help and sharp eyes, state explicitly that non-ritual food is not nourishing (p. 77 and p. 136).... I do agree with your argument but I still don’t think it is applicable. I do think it is able to argue the opposite case and still be within ME paradigm.

Why? Because the crucial point isn’t whether, within ME paradigm, when, or how humans get nourished by food. Rather it is whether it is within the possibilities of Hermetic Magic. And Hermetic Magic is restricted by the Limit of Energy as well as the Limit of Creation. This might be argued, in-paradigm terms, to be because creation and energy are basically within the realms of the Divine, perhaps on accord of the divinity having created the world and that creation and sustaining life/existence thus being divine forces. Or it might simply be an error in hermetic magic. Therefore it is a general flaw in the kind of magic used by Hermetic magi that makes it impossible for them to create nourishing food. You might say that even though within ME paradigm food would nourish people even if it only exists for a set period before vanishing, the food created by hermetic magic will not. It is sterile, non-fertile, impotent or simply just flawed – whatever word you find fitting. This flaw can only be overcome by using vis in the process. Maybe vis adds that creational force missing, or maybe that is just how Bonisagus patched his theory together.

I'm still in the magically created food is not nutritious and will not sustain life.
It may quell hunger pangs , but you still die.
Part of my reasoning is , if this option is used offensively.

You capture someone you want a hold over.
Feed them only on non-vis created food and water ,
and , unless you choose to have real food and water for them ,
they die a horrible death from thirst and starvation in minutes.
(after the duration of the magical food expires)

There is no need to limit yourself to one person ,
keep your grogs loyal in this manner ,
it is cheaper than actually feeding them.

This option can be used on player characters ,
while some may find it a roleplaying challenge ,
i am not one of them.

I agree. On top of your examples it could also be used to feed some prominent guests, even a sodalis (hmm... think: food spells with a high penetration), and then see them off smiling, knowing very well that they will not go far from your doorstep before they will die a seemingly unvoilent death. I have earlier taken to calling this sillyness for a "horribly cartoonic possibilty of assasination by prolonged exposure to magical created non-permanent food".

Consensus begone!

Phew.

I am currently ambivalent, but I must confess that I'm attracted to Furion's position (although initially I was in favor of my interpretation of the RAW). The possibilities for abuse are simply too great, as Ravenscroft's and Furion's last posts demonstrate.

Other Ideas
The issue of other costs of magical sustenance were raised. That it causes warping seems to be in wide agreement (although I don't think the RAW actually requires that). Another idea that was raised was making aging rolls after the sustenance stops.

The issue of using other techniques was also raised. What happens if you Muto a rock into an apple and eat it? What if you Muto yourself into a cow and eat grass? Can you Muto the need for food out of yourself? Can you Rego someone to provide the effects of sustenance?

I think Mutoing stuff into food works like (non-Ritual) Creo food, but Mutoing yourself into a cow to eat grass can work. Mutoing yourself into rock that doesn't need food works by RAW. Rego cannot be used to heal, provide sustenance, or age someone; probably has something to do with the Divine's monopoly on true creation and life, and with Platonic ideals.

[Furion Transsanus]

Oh, Yair you know I love it. Food that is. Especially discussing it. And I can't help getting sidetracked every time this pops up on the board. But hey - any villain has to have a serious flaw exploitable by the protagonists. Mine would be to entice me to speak of the magical creation of food while in the midst of a Certamen or Wizard's War!

Before commenting further - it at all needed since my words are already used a couple of times above - I would like to suggest a change in the survey to meet the aims of it the better. I do no think many of us who have discussed this a fair amount of time disagree on having Ritual Creo food nourish. But the question as is might confuse this. so would it be possible to add a "non-permament" or "non-ritual" or some such to the question Is magically created food nourishing?

[Fruny]

Mine would be to entice me to speak of the magical creation of food while in the midst of a Certamen or Wizard's War!

Iron Chef as a Certamen phantasm?

Yair - if you play it well, this thread could be the key to grandmastery for you.

[YR7]

Before commenting further - it at all needed since my words are already used a couple of times above - I would like to suggest a change in the survey to meet the aims of it the better. I do no think many of us who have discussed this a fair amount of time disagree on having Ritual Creo food nourish. But the question as is might confuse this. so would it be possible to add a "non-permament" or "non-ritual" or some such to the question Is magically created food nourishing?

I can't change the poll, that's something only the board administrators can do. I did add a note in the post's text, though. In bold, too.

And I'd appreciate your comments regarding the RAW, at least. We seem to have a difference of opinion there. (Not sure if I agree with your 'not nourishing at all' suggestion or not yet.)

Yair - if you play it well, this thread could be the key to grandmastery for you.

Yes, my ascension is immanent.

[Furion Transsanus]

Mine would be to entice me to speak of the magical creation of food while in the midst of a Certamen or Wizard's War!

Iron Chef as a Certamen phantasm?

ROFL. Certainly would out-maneuver me! But I tell you, I would be completely defenseless against the Swedish Chef (Brok! Bork! Bork!). But who really believes in the existence of the Order of Odin? (or did I perchance see something in the Ancient Magic?)

Yair - if you play it well, this thread could be the key to grandmastery for you.

Would be well deserved with the work done by our sodalis to patch all those loose threads together.

Moreso, knowing my own addiction to (speaking of) food, I am not entirely unsure that I might not at some time attempt to mingle in the Grand Master Lounge (at least to refill the coffee-o-mat).

[Fruny]

Yes, my ascension is immanent.

Let's help you transcend.

FWIW, I think the RAW support option 2 "No, it isn't nourishing. It can quell hunger, but won't provide sustenance," much as I dislike it. Someone exclusively eating such food would lose weight ("Try the New Hermetic Diet now!"), weaken and ultimately die of starvation. The food might be filling, but not actually quell hunger (i.e. you're stuffed, but still hungry).

Much like the food this option describes, I don't find that very satisfying.

ROFL. Certainly would out-maneuver me!

Now the question is ... ReAn or ReHe?

But I tell you, I would be completely defenseless against the Swedish Chef (Brok! Bork! Bork!).

Try this, then.

[Furion Transsanus]

Alright, let's settle this once and for all.

Actually I'd rather we did not... I like discussing this, and I will defend my views fervently, but I really don't think that there is a definitive and autoritative "right" to be gained. But let us argue, fuss and fight (Certamen if it comes to that) but each have their own game.

I have now voted, but only after taking some time to ponder. My preference was somewhere between option 2 and 3.

Concerning the RAW I am not as certain anymore. The rules certainly contradict themselves. On one side the indtroduction on the Arts (p. 77) should be covering it, but on the other side I do believe that most of us when the guideline for one Art says something, this is also covering for similar situations with other Arts, that doesn't mention it, in case they don't explicit say otherwise. In this case p. 136 suggests that it isn't nourishing. The RAW being contradictionary I do not thing this minor subject will get a clarification forthcoming.

Nevertheless RAWs aside, for me the most important arguments - in how I chose to do this with my troupe - are the ones connected to what effects this would have for the setting and vice versa what I think is best explained within the frame of the setting. For me non-ritual magic food created by Hermetic Magic is not nourishing. Pause. But I am still very much open for suggestions on how to handle situations where people eat such food nonetheless. And in that regard - what gives the potential most interesting scenes and roleplay? The unnatural hunger-notion suggested by Fruny is appealing in that regard, but I would just have it set in earlier so as to asure that the character would know that something was horribly wrong and start to weaken, because the last thing I would want is the sudden death by the end of duration.

I am not at all opposed to other ways of surviving such as the changig to cows, stones or shrubbery or whatever suits the magus, to survive without food, but using Muto to change something uneatable into something else and eating it.. well on that I am really at loss. I really dont have a firm idea on my views on this, yet. It is a totally different situation - and it doesn't conflict with the Limits of Creation and Energy, but rather with Essential Nature. And in terms of the setting it would "threathen" the setting just as much as the Creo food would. Why else would any covenant ever procure food in any other size or shape? Why not taking to selling off food to its surroundings? But before deciding how I would prefer to run this, I would like to think of arguments within the ME setting and Hermetic Magic to make the odds and ends come together.

Bork! Bork! out!

[Erik Dahl]

As I see it, there's basically two types of non-permanent magical food: food created with a Duration of Sun (less than that really isn't worth it), and food created with a Duration of Moon (no one's going to waste the vis on Year when they could do it at Mom). The former would disappear before it had time to be digested, leaving the person very hungry, as if he hadn't eaten. These spells aren't a problem for me. So it's the latter that we're worried about, the spells that have enough time to be absorbed into the body. I think that while the person would feel ravenous when the spell wore off, it would not do physical damage to him.

It's like non-permanent healing spells: They seal the wound for the duration, but then it reopens afterwards, and this does not cause additional wounds to open. Likewise, I think hunger and thirst are quenched for the duration with sustenance creating spells, and their ending leaves the person the way they were before but does not cause any additional damage. Magi could heal everyone with D: Moon spells, too, but their patients are really going to suffer when the spell ends. If adventuring magi want to create all of their food with D: Moon spells, I don't really have a problem with that, and I think creating magical feasts is a nice thing for an Herbam or Animal specialist to be able to do.

The food is clearly not nutritious, though. So, when living on magical food, either by creating it with non-permanent duration or changing inedible things into food and eating them, I suggest you give the character a penalty to his aging roll for that year, something like -1 for each month in which the magus survived on magical food alone. A whole year living that way would basically guarantee an Aging Point unless the character has a really powerful Longevity ritual. I suggest a similar penalty for magi who go a long time without healing their injuries naturally or without breathing normally (like spending months underwater under the effects of Lungs of the Fish.)

[angafea]

Wow, lots of work here! Bravo for the effort.

[Fruny]

It's like non-permanent healing spells: They seal the wound for the duration, but then it reopens afterwards, and this does not cause additional wounds to open.

There's a difference here: healing spells will eventually cause warping, as would CrCo spells that directly sustain people so that they don't need food.

A whole year living that way would basically guarantee an Aging Point unless the character has a really powerful Longevity ritual.

Warping is an alternative, with surviving on magical food counting as a being under a long-term magical effect.

[Ravenscroft]

Why don't we actually design some food creation spells?
Then see how much they can be abused.
As an aside , what about serving exotic treats such as ,
Polar Bear Liver.

Polar bear liver contains toxic levels of vitamin A and should not be eaten

Are there any similar nibbles we can offer guests that we may actually want to poison?

With Creo poisons , we never need to use vis to make them "nourishing".
Depending on the type of poison , we only need duration.

[ncl]

I voted for option 4 - that anyone who consumes magical food for a substantial length of time instantly starves to death once the spell duration ends. I agree that the RAW contradict themselves but am inclined to accept Yair's "generous interpretation" that non-ritual Creo food isn't permanently nourishing. I opt for "dead" as opposed to "supernaturally hungry" based on the discussion of the magical horse which eats mundane food (on page 77). "If a magically created horse was fed on mundane food for a year, it would leave a mundane corpse when the spell expired, as the mundane food has been converted into [a] mundane body." If mundane food persists in a magical body after the duration ends, I should think that magical food incorporated into a mundane body should disappear once the duration ends. Such a disappearance should be highly unpleasant to downright fatal.

There are a couple of objections to the "instant starvation" position which I'd like to address.

Yair, as I understand him, opts for "supernaturally hungry" due to the passage in the Creo guidelines, "becomes extremely hungry when the duration expires." If non-permanent food implies non-permanent nutrition, I think it would be odd if some residual magic hangs around after the spell ended to prevent the eater from dying from starvation. I am forced to interpret this passage to mean that the eater has only been subsisting on non-permanent food for a few weeks, but I can see how someone might legitimately disagree.

As for CrCo healing spells, healing from a non-ritual spell ends when the spell's duration does, and I think that also implies that any nutrition from non-permanent food should also instantaneously disappear. Erik has argued, rather, the effects of non-permanent healing imply that someone eating magical food shouldn't starve since non-permanent healing spells don't cause additional wounds. Again, I think that's a reasonable interpretation, but I disagree. New wounds don't naturally appear on a body; hunger does. A month or two hunger deferred should cause starvation.

Again, I should note that I don't think the RAW really give us a cut-and-dry answer to this question. Consequently, I've used a lot of words like "interpret" and "imply." I think there is quite a bit of room for reasonable and legitimate disagreement on this issue, depending on how one interprets various ambiguous sentences.

As for metagame issues, I'm not particularly bothered by a magus trying to assassinate someone via non-permanent food. That actually sounds like a neat adventure hook to me. I do think it's important to maintain limited resources of food, though. Removing such a resource limit would change the setting pretty drastically.

Now, all of this having been said, if I were the alpha SG of a new saga, I'd be extremely tempted to house rule Furion's interpretation, "No, it isn't nourishing. It can quell hunger, but won't provide sustenance." This is the simplest option to adjudicate and preserves food scarcity.

Other things:

I agree that Muto'ing a stone into bread isn't nourishing, Muto'ing yourself into a cow while eating grass is, and that Rego can't help you here.

I would, however, allow the construction of Creo Corpus rituals to allow a magus to skip eating or correct for a nutrition deficiency gained by eating non-permanent food.

[ncl]

Why don't we actually design some food creation spells?

Dairies of the Hidden Magi CrAn 20, Ri
R: Touch D: Mom T: Ind, Ritual

This spell fills a depression the size of a small pond with milk.

This spell is also a stabilized discovery toward breaking the Limit of Creation.
(Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Size, Ritual)

Fields of the Hidden Magi CrHe 25, Ri
R: Touch D: Mom T: Ind, Ritual
This spell fills a space the size of a barn with plant-based foodstuffs including unprocessed barley and wheat, peas, beans, cabbage, onions, garlic, turnips, and apples.

While this spell was invented via experimentation, it shows no unusual effects.
(Base 2, +2 Voice, +1 Group, +2 Size, +2 varied plant products, Ritual)

Since these are rituals, they will (hopefully) be non-controversial. Along with a handful of retainers, the magi in our saga have actually been subsisting on the products of these two rituals for about five years now, ever since knights of the Albigensian crusade occupied the manor atop their (underground) covenant.

[angafea]

Dairies of the Hidden Magi CrAn 20, Ri
R: Touch D: Mom T: Ind, Ritual

This spell fills a depression the size of a small pond with milk.


(Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Size, Ritual)

Fields of the Hidden Magi CrHe 25, Ri
R: Touch D: Mom T: Ind, Ritual
This spell fills a space the size of a barn with plant-based foodstuffs including unprocessed barley and wheat, peas, beans, cabbage, onions, garlic, turnips, and apples.

(Base 2, +2 Voice, +1 Group, +2 Size, +2 varied plant products, Ritual)

Is milk Animal? I get it could be considered an "animal product", but it could also be considered a "natural liquid" (the aquam guidelines).

Is the "+2 varied plant products" in a rulebook somewhere? I don't disagree with it, but I'd like to know if it's a house or official rule.

Oh, and most importantly, ACK! to ground milk.

[angafea]

Why don't we actually design some food creation spells?

The Pea Most Perilous

Level: 2
R: Touch, D: Diam, T: Ind

Creates a single pea that lasts about 2 minutes. Reguardless of the amount of other food digested the eater becomes extremely hungry when the duration expires (per Creo rules). This spell can be used to speed up interrogation, pad a patron's food bill, or just to be rude. In some areas of belief, the ingester dies.
(Base 1, +1 Diam)