eliminating the pink dot with as little alteration as possib

[Erik Tyrrell]

I am, in general, a defender of the 5th editiion parma rules for my game and have not yet run into in-play problems with the pink dot problem (perhaps my fellow players are insufficiently ruthless). As such, I have not closely followed all of the parma alternatives threads.

Yet I think that I've got a take that might make others happy.

A few weeks ago on this board someone suggested a take on parma that I thought was workable and eliminated the pink dot "problem" (I can't find the post and I susspoect that they didn't even know that they did it). Here is my attempt to describe it;

Parma works exactly as presented in the book with a single exception;

A mundane object that has not been magically altered in shape or substance (but could be altered in some other way such as appearance, temperature, creo vim magic stink, etcetera) and that is not moved by any magical force will not be kept away from the caster by parma magica. Instead the parma will deform elastically around the object. Thus the parma still exists between the object and the magus and effects like the object being exceedingly hot, weeping poison, or growing spikey bits would be resisted.

A mutoed poison could not be drank.

A mundane arrow that is first shot into the target and then changed into a biting cobra would be resisted.

Edge of the sword/ spoon arguably change the shape of their target so they would be resisted. In other words a pink dot style defense could still be created, but it would need to change the shape or substance of the target. Thus it would be more difficult to do and it would need arts specific to the attacking object.

A sword that has a muto imagonemed pink dot ,is creo ignemed to be above room temperature, and has a creo vim magical air to it would not be resisted, but the heat given off by the above room temperature blade would not affect the magus unless it penetrated the magus' parma.

[AngusGM]

Parma works exactly as presented in the book with a single exception;

A mundane object that has not been magically altered in shape or substance (but could be altered in some other way such as appearance, temperature, creo vim magic stink, etcetera) and that is not moved by any magical force will not be kept away from the caster by parma magica. Instead the parma will deform elastically around the object.

This is more or less what I was trying to suggest with my objections to The Edge of the Razor -- that as the sword had not fundamentally altered, only the magical aspects of the sword (the extra edgy bits) would be halted by the Parma, not the sword itself.

There will probably be objections to this interpretation, but this is pretty much what I am using in my saga, whether canon or no.

[Eldragil]

That works beautifully, Erik. It protects from the magicalness of the sword, but not from the swordness. Thus, in the case of the dread "pink dot" it would protect you from the pinkness of the blade, but not the blade itself. Poifect!

[Fruny]

The way I've been interpreting things:

"Simply" ignore whichever aspect of the target that is affected by the spell. Either totally or in proportion of the importance of the effect.

Sword with pink dot: treat as if the sword didn't have a pink dot. You are hit by a sword.

Magically sharp sword: treat as if the sword was not sharp at all. You are hit by a blunt object.

Magically dulled sword: also treat as if the sword was not sharp at all. You are hit by a blunt object.

Magically created sword: ignore the sword completely.

Invested device: The Verditius Magic indicate that a device must be able to mundanely hold its weight, from which I infer that it is "structurally" mundane, and thus you can still be hit by them. *Active* invested effects are considered individually for effect and penetration.

Natural weapons of magical creatures: Hit normally to the extent that they aren't magically enhanced (i.e. they aren't listed as Powers).

Poison turned into milk: non-poisonous, but neither nutritious nor even tasting like milk.

Shrunk boulder: ignore anything that's related to size and weight.

Rego-ed projectile: ignore the rego effect (i.e. 'bounces off').

Chamber of Spring Breezes: ignore the wind effect.

Poison gas: ignore the poison. I don't know what the medieval paradigm is on gases. I assume there is no notion of "displacing" breathable air, so the
Parma would only act to neutralize the harmful vapors.

Falling on a Creo-ed stone bridge: you take damage from your fall being stopped (as was mentioned in another thread), but you don't take damage from scraping against the rock.


Think of it as a Perdo effect that dulls the qualities that have been magically affected to the point that their effect on the magus are negligible. I think it also works well with that blurb I remember reading (4th ed?) about how some magi didn't like keeping a Parma up at all time because it stopped them from experiencing the world in its fullness. If you follow the interpretation that the Magic realm is the origin of the platonic forms, the more perfect something is, the closer to the Magic realm it is and thus the more it would be "dulled" by Parma.



Note that this only changes how the spell's target affects you, not how you affect the spell's target: Parma doesn't enable you to do something you couldn't do otherwise (note that I don't say "couldn't do safely"). You can't pick up a pebble that has been turned into a huge boulder, you can't walk through a Creo-ed wall, etc.

[Badger101]

An ingenious fix for 'pink sword' - and beautifully simple!

To check I've understood what you mean. I guess that a spell like ...

Indent the Metal Blade MuTe 10
Alters a blade so that it has small indentations along it's length. This effect does not alter any of the sword's statistics, but renders the blade magical.
[B: 1 +2 metal (change one property of metal), R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual]

(it's basically the same level for wooden weapons, too)

The Fire that Burns Brightly MuIg 10
Makes a fire (up to the size of a small house) burn more brightly. This does not increase the damage, but renders the flames magical.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual; Size +2]

... would still get blocked though. So spells designed to cause weapons and environmental hazards to be blocked by parma are still possible, but now art specific. (though still much lower than Rego effects designed to ward them)

I recognise that this is only intended as a fix for 'pink sword' - but, I still feel uncomfortable with a system that appears to allow spells to potentially make the Parma act against the Magus. e.g. ...

The Foul Breath of Wind MuAu 5
Changes all air in a room so that it becomes mildly acidic (+1 damage each round). This renders the air magical, so that it is blocked by Parma and the victim begins to be deprived of air (deprivation, p.180)
[B: 1, R: Touch +1, D: Concentration +1, T: Room +2

But I suppose any system that blocks "poisonous water" will inevitably block "poisonous air" too ...

[Badger101]

Think of it as a Perdo effect that dulls the qualities that have been magically affected to the point that their effect on the magus are negligible.

Fruny, this is basically a suppressive parma with some exclusions for Muto effects. Check out my formulation in my thread 'an experiment in magical resistance' and let me know what you think.

[Erik Tyrrell]

An ingenious fix for 'pink sword' - and beautifully simple!

To check I've understood what you mean. I guess that a spell like ...

Indent the Metal Blade MuTe 10
Alters a blade so that it has small indentations along it's length. This effect does not alter any of the sword's statistics, but renders the blade magical.
[B: 1 +2 metal (change one property of metal), R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual]
(it's basically the same level for wooden weapons, too)

Changes shape so it is blocked

The Fire that Burns Brightly MuIg 10
Makes a fire (up to the size of a small house) burn more brightly. This does not increase the damage, but renders the flames magical.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual; Size +2]

Does not change shape or substance so it would not get blocked (ok perhaps you could argue substance).

So spells designed to cause weapons and environmental hazards to be blocked by parma are still possible, but now art specific. (though still much lower than Rego effects designed to ward them)

right

I recognise that this is only intended as a fix for 'pink sword' - but, I still feel uncomfortable with a system that appears to allow spells to potentially make the Parma act against the Magus. e.g. ...

The Foul Breath of Wind MuAu 5
Changes all air in a room so that it becomes mildly acidic (+1 damage each round). This renders the air magical, so that it is blocked by Parma and the victim begins to be deprived of air (deprivation, p.180)
[B: 1, R: Touch +1, D: Concentration +1, T: Room +2

I finess this issue by making different assumptions about the nature of air in a world based on forms rather than physics

But I suppose any system that blocks "poisonous water" will inevitably block "poisonous air" too ...

quite

I'm off on a bussiness trip till late next week. I won't have any more chance to respond until then.

[Badger101]

The Fire that Burns Brightly MuIg 10
Makes a fire (up to the size of a small house) burn more brightly. This does not increase the damage, but renders the flames magical.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual; Size +2]

Does not change shape or substance so it would not get blocked (ok perhaps you could argue substance).

Hmm ... ok, just mulling this over. I hope you don't mind me mentally play-testing your idea. I'm not trying to break it, but trying to understand it.

How about this one then ...

The Fire that Burns 'Hotly' MuIg 10
Makes a fire (up to the size of a bonfire) burn more intensely (damage +15 rather than +10). This effect also renders the flames magical.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual; Size +1, Damage +1]

... blocked or not, do you think?

I finesse this issue by making different assumptions about the nature of air in a world based on forms rather than physics

So the air is not blocked, but the poison is ... I'll search the board, but what was the 'finesse' you used to get around this?

[Erik Tyrrell]

Ok I'm sitting bythe computer and waitingfor the taxi I jhave time for one more post (I'm so sad).

The Fire that Burns Brightly MuIg 10
Makes a fire (up to the size of a small house) burn more brightly. This does not increase the damage, but renders the flames magical.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual; Size +2]

Does not change shape or substance so it would not get blocked (ok perhaps you could argue substance).

Hmm ... ok, just mulling this over. I hope you don't mind me mentally play-testing your idea. I'm not trying to break it, but trying to understand it.

How about this one then ...

The Fire that Burns 'Hotly' MuIg 10
Makes a fire (up to the size of a bonfire) burn more intensely (damage +15 rather than +10). This effect also renders the flames magical.
[B: 1, R: Voice +2, D: Diameter +1, T: Individual; Size +1, Damage +1]

... blocked or not, do you think?

I'm at a loss for what qualifies as the substance of a mundane fire. What can a magus do to a mundae fire to make it magical and therefore resited. (this is what you are getting at yes?) Obviously turning it into a toad would work. certainly making it burn with circular flames rather than flame shaped ones would do it.

I don't see a fire penetrating through a parma the way a sword would. the character would still have to deal wth the mundane fire whether or not it can penetrate their parma.

I finesse this issue by making different assumptions about the nature of air in a world based on forms rather than physics

So the air is not blocked, but the poison is ... I'll search the board, but what was the 'finesse' you used to get around this?

Nature abhors a vacuum there's clean air available to the magus even if everything around him is deadly poisonous and resisted. (Not real supportable but remember auram is to a certain extent "wind" rather than "air").

Now I've really got to go.

[Badger101]

I don't see a fire penetrating through a parma the way a sword would. the character would still have to deal wth the mundane fire whether or not it can penetrate their parma.

Hmm ... I've managed to confuse myself now!

The substance of a fire is its flames ... I suppose. If you magically alter the flames (e.g. make them brighter or to do more damage) I've always assumed it would be blocked by AM5 canon.

Nature abhors a vacuum there's clean air available to the magus even if everything around him is deadly poisonous and resisted.

Essentially a suppressive effect ... fair enough - I can't see a way around this one with a purely blocking Parma.

[The dread Comedian]

Not the pink Dot again.

My ingenious Solution for that Sword -Protection is to threaten the suggesting Player with serious bodily harm.....

I really can´t stand this perversion of the rules.

[Winged]

How would a sword MuIm'ed to look like a dagger work with this kind of parma?

*Wing

[Ravenscroft]

Not the pink Dot again.

My ingenious Solution for that Sword -Protection is to threaten the suggesting Player with serious bodily harm.....

I really can´t stand this perversion of the rules.

The Pink Dot Defense , is just an example of "taint something with magic".
MuIm to change colour is the easiest way to achieve this at low levels ,
especially for spontaneous spells.

Someone has yet to give me an answer as to what happens if you turn incoming hostile spells Pink (or any colour of choice).

[The dread Comedian]

Not the pink Dot again.

My ingenious Solution for that Sword -Protection is to threaten the suggesting Player with serious bodily harm.....

I really can´t stand this perversion of the rules.

Oh I know that this little Gem was developed by the Line-Editor,which makes it somewhat "official" but I don´t need to like it.

[David Chart]

Not the pink Dot again.

My ingenious Solution for that Sword -Protection is to threaten the suggesting Player with serious bodily harm.....

I really can´t stand this perversion of the rules.

Oh I know that this little Gem was developed by the Line-Editor,which makes it somewhat "official" but I don´t need to like it.

Neither do I. On balance, though, I like the alternatives less.