"Leonardus was a member of Triamore, in the Rhine," clarifies Clusius. "It is my mater, his first filia, who was recently invited to become a member of Valnastium."
"excuse my ignorance, but how would we even find out if the tribunals would accept a new covenant? It seems we need to know that they would want us before weighing if we would join"
Eikona realizes that some of the debate is rather sensitive: "I am aware that it may be fair for me to leave the council chamber if you want to discuss topics that concern members only."
She looks at the senior quaesitor: "I've heard that stealing from other magi is not a crime in Normandy. Is that true?"
Wolfgang responds to Regulus, "Joining any tribunal would lead to sources contested, and possibly lost, to the other two. Of course, Normandy would be worse. Lotharingia is the most uncertain, but if it does form we could ensure that the boundaries of the new tribunal put our sources incontestibly within the new tribunal, so in the event of success, the vis is the most secure."
"Oh, I see. I hadn't thought of that in this way... you are correct, of course. Humm... In this putative Lotharingian Tribunal we would still be in the border of the Alps, so I imagine we could still face some contest from their side, but that can't be helped. Anyway, with Clusius clarification it seems to me that we have almost zero chance of joining the Alps."
Turning to Marcus:
"The Perifereal Code of each Tribunal should make clear what are the requirements to formally establish a covenant. If we meet the requirements they can't oppose us, except on political grounds. For example, even if we meet all the requirements for a Theban Tribunal, I doubt that Thebes would accept us, and Normandy and Rhine would surely contest this movement too. To join Normandy on the other side, we already meet the basic requirements, as Augustus has stated."
"That is a common misconception," Augustus says in answer to Eikona's question. "The Normandy Tribunal, in a ruling made in 1088, established that the mundane resources of a covenant cannot be considered to contribute to the magical power of its members. This was later interpeted as meaning that an attack on a covenant's purely mundanes resources is not a infringement on magical power, and so cannot be prosecuted as a Hermetic crime. Although it is true that there was a period during which covenants would raid each other's mundane resources, this practice has mostly fallen out of practice."
Turning to Marcus, Augustus shakes his head, "In the same way you find out anything about magi, you speak to them. Although my young House-mate is correct that the Peripheral Code of each Tribunal records the traditional requirements for forming a new covenant, in practice it requires gathering sufficient support to do so. That requires meeting with magi from that Tribunal's covenants and convincing them to support your claim that you should be part of their Tribunal."
"And even though you may meet the minimum requirements of Normandy, just showing up at the next meeting and expecting to be accepted would be a mistake. By then, news or just rumours of Tugurium's existence will have leaked within each of the Tribunals. A covenant could bring up charges of plundering against you. Since the Praeco gets to decide in what order the topics will be brought before the Tribunal, he might be convinced to have this charge should debated before your covenant is recognized, and a ruling against you would make you all guilty of a Low Crime with a steep fine. That could negatively incline the Tribunal towards Tugurium and they might vote to reject your joining on those grounds."
"Some in the Tribunal could also be hesitant to offend the Greater Alps or the Rhine."
Augustus spreads his hands before him, "I'm not saying any of this will happen. Just that you cannot just let events be decided by others. Go out and gather support, in all three Tribunals, because whatever your choice is you will need it to minimize the repercussions of your choice."
Wolfgang looks to Augustus. "I have some questions of serious law... Other than just making friends and hoping, is there anything else we can do to prevent charges of plundering? Why haven't there been such charges in the past? Does being registered with Magvillus help? What about our citizenship status, how much leeway for delay do we have with that? Or does the registry with Magvillus cover it?"
"A charge of plundering can only be brought against a member of the Normandy Tribunal, when the one making the charge can prove that a vis source has been harvested within the Tribunal border. A magus can prevent the charge by declaring the vis source when it is discovered. So technically the charge could have been brought against Leonardus, because he never declared the sources he discovered. Of course, since he was not a member of Normandy, it was much harder to do that."
"One way to avoid the charge would be to declare the sources quickly -- you could argue that you just learned about the sources and thus reported them in a timely fashion. This would deflect the blame on Leonardus."
"Registering the source with Magvillus wouldn't help much -- and I would note that for now I was only planning on registering the covenant's charter with Magvillus, not its vis sources."
"Your citizenship status might help, or not. That will depend on how each covenant of Normandy sees things."
Wolfgang blushes a little, turning perfectly pink. "Apologies, magus, I was unclear. I meant, does being members of a covenant registered with Magvillus prevent us from being charged with vagrancy?"
"Ah, vangrancy. Do you mean the concept present in the Greater Alps that a magus needs to be associated with a covenant? I'm less familiar with the Alps' Peripheral Code, but I think you would be safe there. If you were petitioning that Tribunal for membership as a covenant, then you would have to demonstrate that you have sufficient vis sources, which you do."
"No, no, you must mean not having a Tribunal. Well, not really. You could either claim, individually, membership in one of the three Tribunals, but how that would apply to you would have to be ascertained based on your situation. Clusius, for example, was until recently a guest of Triamore. So he could claim he is still a peregrinator of the Rhine, since this is a border territory. It would be harder for Perion here, since he has never lived in the Rhine, but in his case he could argue he is simply an eremite of Normandy. Each status, of course, comes with its own restrictions and limitations. So Perion would have to be careful not to harvest vis sources in Normandy to avoid being charged with plundering."
"In any case, if a charge is brought against one or more of you, you may also ask for some leeway by demonstrating that you are actively seeking affiliation of the covenant to a Tribunal, and that the border nature of your location explains the delay. That would buy you some time."
"I have been a pereginator for years as well, and could maintain it as a legal fiction if I needed to..." marcus says with a worried smile
"but we will have to think of what we can do to make people want us. Services or favours we can trade."
Perion listens patiently, sometimes zoning out trying to remember what peregrinator or eremite specifically meant in the bounds of the Hermetic Order. When he hears his name get brought up by Augustus, Perion jumps slightly in his seat. He looks between the two quaesitors before realizing he wasn't directly being asked a question. Perion gathers his wits and ventures: "I am still only becoming acquainted to the world of the Order's politics. From the options presented thus far, it sounds like the Lotharingian Tribunal might be our most stable choice in the long term, but it does nothing for us now. I am not familiar enough with the Rhine's customs to know how a covenant is founded there specifically, but being able to avoid the Perthean Compact is rather tempting."
Perion shifts his gaze around the table as he speaks, finally settling back on the pair of quaesitors. Perion grins and asks, "And how would I be able to become a member of the Rhine Tribunal?"
Regulus has zoned in and out for a few instants, listening vaguely to Augustus words and realizing he is still a bit naive. If possible he would like law to be just law, and politics to be only politics, one apart from the other... But alas, never in the history of the Order this was the case. His focus comes back in time for him to listen to Perion's question, and he fights back the urge to answer "join a covenant in the Rhine" - an answer both true and useless.
Instead he starts to consider how much time could they safely defend that they are peregrinatores or eremites, and how he would tear down such defense if he was in the opposition. There could be a day when he would be called to shield them from such blows.
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Marcus is thinking about his pater, who has created a wandering covenant in all but name for himself and some of his hermetic siblings.
"I have spent most of the last ten years wandering the Rhine, it was where much of my training also occured. Making a Rhinish covenant isn't difficult legally. Just politically. Every existing covenant has a veto on new covenant foundation, and some are deeply invested in the status quo"
He ponders for a moment
"But I wonder what the difference between an unrecognised covenant and a legally recognised covenant is. The Rhine gives rights to magi, not covenants, I think. Especially if we claimed, honestly, that we were seeking the political support to become a recognised covenant."
He frowns
"I think I wish I had studied hermetic law more carefully"
Snapping out of his revelry, Regulus slowly turns to Marcus He opens his mouth and speaks as if quoting from a textbook.
"Covenants are one of the most important institutions of the Order. Generally speaking, one has the rights given by the Oath of Hermes by the virtue of being a magus, but these rights are enhanced if one belongs to a covenant."
"For example, suppose no one joined Clusius here in Tugurium and I came and steal from his vis sources. He could then bring charges of deprivation against me, and we would be one against one. But with all the friends here if I did that, it would be I alone against four magi. Your claim is much stronger. Unity makes strength."
"The recognition as part of a Tribunal is also usually done by looking at your covenant. There are a few specific rules in some Tribunals, but usually you are a member of the Tribunal if you are a member of a covenant of that Tribunal."
"It's not by chance that establishing a new Tribunal - the geographic division - requires at least twelve magi, themselves from at least four different covenants. And indeed, a Tribunal - the legal court - cannot be held at all if twelve magi from at least four covenants don't show up."
"You say the Rhine does not give rights to covenants, but endorsing the foundation of other covenants is not a right itself? A covenant from Normandy has no say on this."
Regulus pauses for a moment.
"On that note... I am no connoisseur of the Peripheral Code in Rhine, but do you need the endorsement of all the covenants of the Tribunal? Or only of the Princeps of each covenant? Or maybe only one magus from each covenant? There are different implications with each statement."
Regulus looks between Marcus and Augustus after this last question, waiting to see if the senior magus knows the answer.
Wolfgang clears his throat. "It's only one magus or maga from each covenant, who must agree to sponsor. The advantage of the Rhine is that they are quite happy to push outward on their borders at any opportunity. I think I can be confident in getting us someone from Durenmar, but as I said, Fengheld will be tricky. Dankmar will do nothing for anybody, but there are very few of them, and one of them might be bribable. There's no rule against quid pro quo. Then there are a bunch more covenants, that I have little relationship with, though I have good chance with any who have an member of the Eschengilde in residence. I will need to do some correspondence, and get back to you, if we go the Rhine route."
Eikona interrupts: "I used to live at Fengheld. I know a few nice magi there."
She falls silent again, absorbed in memories.
Marcus looks at all of his new sodales thinking he can sense some sort of resolution in the room
"So are we heading to the idea of asking for membership in the Rhine? No one seems to want anything to do with Normandy, and... I don't think I honestly believe that the greater alps would accept us."
"I'd very much like to head to a hot bath before that decision is made." Regulus seems to move his missing left arm, as if there is something bothering him.
"But for a more practical comment, I think Clusius original idea was good. We should gather information about the Tribunals, not only on the formal procedures, but on who would support and who would oppose us."
"As for Normandy... I know it seems like a bad choice, but we have many ways of protecting our interests, so it wouldn't be that bad of a deal. And given the choice between laws that might seem harsh but that we can maneuver and a land of barbarians with no law, subject to the whims of the covenants and not the Code, I much prefer the former. I hope you take no offense" - Regulus amends quickly at the end, looking at Marcus and Wolfgang apologetically.
Wolfgang shrugs. "I'm not offended, but I don't agree with your characterization of the Rhine. I'm all for struggle and conflicts, Tytalus aren't the only magi who understand that struggle breeds strength. But I will request a thorough review of the rules around raiding and so on, not necessarily right now, but before any decision is made."