1221.OoC

Based on what you know, besides any vibes; He's from House Flambeau who are generally not ones for subtlety and appreciate forthrightness, and he's a Miles, who specifically are forthright. With his actions so far, he seems to use ettiquette and charm as a means of protocol mainly, you've a hunch that once protocol is dispensed with he tends to cut right to the heart of a situation.

Two people in the same room who both have +3 Presences AND Venus' Blessing... Does the world implode? :laughing:

:laughing: very good point - please go ahead and post/respond, but I'm going back to edit my post a bit to add in Jormungand's response to... mmmm... Laetitia.

I think two VBs cancel each other out. Like charges on magnets!

Jormungand is cute, but Trianoma's tits, if that accent doesn't make him sound like a peasant! :stuck_out_tongue:

Tropaea and luctatio are vis sources that cannot be claimed as a seisin, because they fall outside the allowed harvesting distance. In this Tribunal that distance is actually measured as a there and back return trip within daylight during midsummer. The vis sources are registered with House Mercere to establish credit and have proof that these do in fact belong to Mons Electi. Normandy Tribunal, like modern France is mildly socialist. All sources technically belong to the Tribunal, they can be seisins if they are within the proscribed distance, tropaea if they do not require Arts or specialized hidden knowledge to collect or luctatatio (contested in some way, requiring specialized knowledge or skill and also outside the seisin boundary). That being said, it is not uncommon for vis sources to not get registered with the Tribunal. And keep in mind, that there is a distinction, the Quaesitores are just making it a matter of record for the Tribunal, keeping the books and enforcing the Normandy Peripheral Code.

There's a rumor that some of the Flemish covenants have formed a hidden cartel alternating harvesting of a particular vis source and not registering it. It doesn't qualify as a seisin for any of the covenants.
Make sense?

They either repel or attract, it depends on which ends are facing each other. :laughing:

So, it looks like what happened is that we registered all our vis sources with the Mercere, with the assumption that, by doing so, we were registering them with the Tribunal.

Which, ooc, I'm kinda okay with. None of us are from Normandy, and this is apparently something that they do differently here than from Loch Leglean/Rhine/wherever. (and to be honest, I had assumed that registering with the Mercere was sufficient).

In character, I guess we're going to have to see if we can get the Mercere to verify that we have, indeed, registered the vis sources properly, or at least have our claims on record and just need to get the Tribunal or Quaesitores to recognize the claims. Could be interesting.

It establishes proof of ownership/discovery. None had been registered with the Tribunal ever before. Apollodorus may have been less than forthright in this matter, or he may have thought he was being clear. But I believe he said that all had been registered with House Mercere, and he was fine with declearing all vis sources as seisin or just one big enough to cover the founding members. As the fair was big enough, it seemed as if that was the only one that was declared, since it had previously been his legacy. Perhaps the Council directed Iosephus and the missive about declaring them all was lost. Lots of possibilities here. But I don't recall anyone speaking up IC and saying, let's declare all our vis sources as seisin.

We could chalk that misunderstanding up, IC, to no one having sufficient Order lore or legal knowledge. :slight_smile:

Or the schemes of a manipulative Orbus Tremere cum Jerbiton...
shrug

In fact, from re-re-re-reading the thread, it was quite the opposite - we declared just the one source to be our Seisin, and just registered the others.

They are either seisin, legacy, tropaea or luctatio.

  • Seisin are any and all vis sources within a day's trip to the source and back again on Midsummer (Solstice) from sunrise to sunset, reachable by mundane means.[1]
  • Legacies are discovered and registered, and fall to the discovering covenant for a term no less than 7 years, the period between Tribunals, often times they run for the remainder of the period +1 duration between tribunals, so generally 13 years. It's amazing how many legacies are discovered the year after Tribunal. After this time they become Tropaea, if not continued to be granted to the discovering covenant. These are outside the range of a seisin.
  • Tropaea were legacies, or seisin of failed covenants are now granted as prizes to the Tourney winners.
  • Luctatio are some sort of contested vis source, which are never given as Tropaea, involve the use of specific Arts, or specialized knowledge, or involve some element of risk to life and limb to harvest. Covenants discovering a Tropaea must register it with the Tribunal, but are under no obligation to reveal the secret to harvesting when it is registered.

[1]It's legal to use magic to make a road more passable to reach a vis source more easily.
So not calling them seisin and saying to just register them, made me think the intention was to leave them with House Mercere and not register them with the Tribunal. Of course, Apollodorus may have intended this or not. Or Iosephus didn't deliver the missive...

Let me just add, whether all the vis sources were registered as seisin with the Tribunal or not there were going to be problems for Mons Electi realted to the matter of all their vis, regardless.

If all sources were registered, the vis wealth would be known about at the first Tribunal they attended, and would've become an issue of jealousy and covetousness on the part of other magi. That's a whole other issue that is now, ostensibly delayed until the next Tribunal, or will shape the events of the next 6 years, at the very least. Winning the Tourney on top of all that fabulous wealth would've brought a Quaesitorial investigation down either way.

The decision of how to handle the wealth is what shaped the direction of the saga to this point. It was always going to shape the direction of the saga, so I don't think that this is a huge issue, it just means slightly differnet stories.

Okay, so Seisin are ours whether we register them or not, as long as we have a cursor who can reach them and make it back between sunrise and sunset within a fortnight of the Summer Solstice, without magical aid?

Then our problem is with Legacies (and Luctatio, if we have any) that we have registered with the Redcaps but not with the Tribunal due to the newcomers' unfamiliarity with how things are done here?

All the vis sources that Mons Electi currently harvests can be legally called seisin. What was the Legacy granted to Apollodorus is now the only registered seisin of Mons Electi.

Technically a contested vis source within the range of a seisin is a seisin, not a luctatio. It's whenever something falls outside that range. Luctatio are different from Tropaea in that they are public knowledge, and anyone can attempt to collect their vis, at any time. So if anyone wants to go on a vis hunt, I can whip one up, and send them on their way...

If anyone wants to slap me for quoting Beyonce, well, I happily deserve it.

Since there were no Redcaps from the Normandy Tribunal at the Tribunal, I think they may be registered but other Covenants may not know about it for some time.

That's not correct, and I clarified this in your thread. The Redcaps present were from Dragon's Rest, calling that covenant home. Redcaps who consider Cunfin their home base operated the Champagne fairs, as they happened around the same time...

Quick note - just because we're being asked to register our Vis Sources, if we really want to avoid some of it we don't have to register ALL of our sources, just the ones most easily found/harvestable. I'm getting hit bad by another software package at work that taking down waaay too many systems - I'll try to post more later but will be MIA for most of today.

Sure. Get caught doing the same thing twice is probably not going to endear anyone at Mons Electi to the Quaesitores. You're essentially suggesting what happened in practice and this is why a Quaesitor was sent, or more precisely, provided the impetus for Proctor to act on what Apollodorus thinks is his true objective.
The Peripheral Code requires all vis sources be registered with the Tribunal, period. If you are claiming them as seisin, then you will be tested to ensure that they are legally your seisin. If they qualify as a legacy lease, you will be allowed to harvest them, but it is unlikely that you will get a renewal, or possible that you be barred from renewing the legacy lease.

Covenants in Normandy have been known to play games like this, and when they get caught the first offense is relatively light. The second offense, well, probably not as light.