1222-1227 OOC

The squeeky wheel system...works. Stuff will get done, eventually... :smiley:

There are less offensive ways to say "no." You do realize that "Impossible" isn't even on the chart?

Regardless, my argument goes to motive, not methodology. You've playing him as yet another deus ex machina. The guy has been trapped in a world of dreams and shadows, a cage made of his own ego and insolence for over 90 years. He should have flaws. He should make mistakes. He should not be used to grogs defying him.

Boy this is a tough post to write.
At first I wrote one, and I thought it was too offensive. And then I thought I'd rewrite it, but as I rewrote it (as in edited my post), it probably got offensive, again, so then I went to a PM, and that wasn't working for me, either.

So, let me just go public, and if you think I'm offensive, take it as bluntness, because that's what it is. It's not offensive, it's me being short and to the point. Don't mistake those two things, please.

There are less offensive ways to play.

No, your argument is not that. The bottom/line crux of the problem is that you can't do something you want one of your characters to do, that I'm effectively placing the hurdle for the character to act as the player desires so far as to be impossible. You're a capable player and smart, I think you can extrapolate on the chart that 'Impossible' is above 'Almost Impossible' meaning, go ahead and try! If the fickle dice gods are kind to you, you can make the character ask as you fully desire. Vin, IMO, is incapable of acting the way you want him to act, because he has no experience with this, and he just got chewed up by scarab beetles, how does he know that next time they won't be real, especially after a warning from Somnifer, who acted as if he knew what the character was doing. But hey, I'm willing to take a really tiny chance that this goes the other way.

So now, let's really dissect the argument. First you called shenanigans and tried to say I was breaking game mechanics. Then, to hedge your argument you included a side-swipe at the overall story. When I rebuffed your mechanics issue, you doubled-down on the story angle. You are assuming that I haven't changed Somnifer in some way, which is a player expectation based on having the same source material as the SG. You're making a huge assumption that Somnifer in this saga is the same Somnifer as described in The Lion and the Lily.

Why must my characters conform to the published materials, and why do you expect my characters to conform to them? Would you not change published characters to fit a saga? Have you never done that? You, sir, have done me a great injustice. I'd like you to take a step back, and decide whether you want the story to unfold, and have the characters respond as they may. It is only the first act of this story, although the final scene is closing. I split the party for a reason. Chronicles of Ridicule, as much as it might seem to be a grog story, is very much a Viscaria story, though she isn't in it. The story is for her, and about her. She's off stage, but she is very much the star of that story. You may have let your expectations as a player, playing Vin color your perceptions of the story.

I'm going to say something to you, that you said to me. Story is king. How I write the story is very much a focus on the constraints of the rules, which you first attacked, and second you tried to get me to conform to your vision of Somnifer. You hit two giant humongous buttons on me. I'd like you to play as you would like a player to play if you were the SG. If I made Ra'am try and hedge the Magic Theory botch when going through Tyrion's lab, would you still not have made him walk through the sanctum, as I made Ra'am do without any guidance? Please play within the story and the context of the saga as the character would understand it, not as you, a player, do or don't understand it.

I all but said where I got it from...
(Edit: I said where I got it from, but I didn't provide the full scope of the effect.)

To be clear, Vin got about this far in what he was saying: "The message is, Somnifer..." I could have been more descriptive, but Somnifer's admonition to "When you next speak of me, speak well" should have been enough of a clue as to how to proceed. In an effort for to explain this story a bit to withstand increased scrutiny, I had always intended Somnifer to go to Confluensis alone[1], and take the players on to Laguna Sententia, and he has only so much vis. I'm not going to reveal the full mechanic in use, that is a puzzle for the character(s) to figure out, and I feel like I'm being compelled to forcefully accede to the whim of a player because one of his characters isn't getting his way. Again, I think I was pretty clear, within the context of the admonition on how Vin could reasonably mention Somnifer, again. It's a puzzle, and if the player wants to skip the puzzle, asking for an absurdly hard die roll is entirely reasonable.

Here's the post that precipitated much of the discussion...

Somnifer is not the deus ex machina of this story, Heims and Cygna might be, but they have the free will of the players to act as they may, so I cannot control their actions, although I brought them here to act. My first (as in prime), often stated, but never written house rule stands, if you don't like my ruling, get the table to come around to your view. I may have been harsh in saying Impossible, which if I extrapolate, becomes a target of 27.

[1]Taking PCs of Mons Electi to Confluensis, especially grogs just seemed wrong to me from a story perspective, so I just made Somnifer not have enough vis to pay for everyone to go. Deus ex machina, or plot point? You be the judge.

This is from Whatever happened to Mr. Walid?. If a badass healing ritual won't set broken bones as part of its operation, I gather that Creo Corpus in general isn't going to help. Would Rego Corpus magic be capable of doing the trick? Of course there's always regular old chirurgy....

Yeah, there's a chiurgeon about...

Hrmm... ReCo Craft :chirurgy? That's interesting...

Anyway, I was basing it on the fact that Alexei doesn't have Incantation of the Body Made Whole, and there's a whole lot of stuff wrong with Ra'am right now... I took a little bit of poetic license with beating up on Ra'am.

Acknowledged. For my own part, I also acknowledge that my initial response was petulant and reactive.

I don't feel like you've characterized my position well, but I agree that I was reacting as a player and not as a character. If you're willing to state that Somnifer's magic obeys a coherent set of mechanical rules as well as story considertions, even if they are ones that I'm not familiar with, then I am willing to apologize for my childish outburst and get back to the game, rather than debate this point further.

As for this being a hard post to write, I think you handled it very well.

Thanks. Hey, I'm right there ready to go, I've had this baby cooking for Viscaria for months, but your gorram con schedule and irregular posting routine... :smiley:

It does make sense, honest, well, maybe Heims and Cygna don't, but I needed to move them from Gallus Florensis to Phoenix somehow, and this seemed to be a good time to do it. Vin is a small fry in this story. If you want him to be a big fry, we need to change the story composition... I could gin up a story for Vin which sees him given the job as the protector of a late Verditius magus's family and children who are still in danger because House Guernicus never found the device he was working on...

Dude, this is why I'm on PbP instead of a table top game. The best I can do for a regular table top game is once a month, and even then I can't always do it on the same day. Do you have any idea what a scheduling pain that is? Since moving to Chicago and trying to find some new gamers to hang out with, I've started literally a half-dozen games that left me behind as everybody else decided to start playing weekly.

The problem is that even though he's just a grog, I want him to be as cool as Riddick. And stepping back from my emotional reaction, it doesn't matter at all. I was just caught off guard by a spell effect when the caster clearly didn't have sensory perception of the target. Riddick ain't supposed to get played like that.

Chirurgeon about = 8)
I took a look at Art & Academe after my post, and there (pp60-61) they do make it clear that ReCo should be able to do a lot of chirurgical stuff, although they talk a lot more about actual surgery than setting broken bones (either magically or manually), other than to classify them under "routine treatment of simple injuries" (middle p61). Bottom line, it looks like Ra'am will be able to walk straight after all, if characters take the time to do it right.

By the way, JL and amul, I like how you've handled your disagreement ... my attempts to be more specific all make me sound like a dork, so I'll leave it at that. :slight_smile:

There was a character in the Wild Cards series whose "mutant" super-power was, basically, a mutant healing factor. He could heal anything in no time. (Was outed as a super when he suffered a compound fracture of his leg late in the second quarter of the Rose Bowl, and was back on the field after half time). Anyway, he was being roughed up by a guy who would break his arms and hold them so that the bones would knit crooked. Repeatedly.

I think JL and I both know that there are people in the community who handle their disagreements a [i]lot[/t] less maturely than that. And that's all I'm gonna say, I've already gotten in enough trouble over it :smiley:

holdmetight.net/

5lovelanguages.com/learn-the ... f-apology/

  • very Christian biased, but valuable if you can overlook it. They say things like, "As a Christian, I believe in compassion." As if non-Christians don't. But like I said, good if you can overlook the presumptive prejudice.

amazon.com/Nonviolent-Commun ... 1892005034

Those three books pretty much completely changed the way I communicate with others.

Gerg, I try and not be too confrontational, I am pretty easy going. I have issues relating to be a single child and learning how to share...
I had to rescind an invitation to the game, once.
I invited someone to the game, and then kicked the player out, and I felt awful about it. So awful about it, I brought the player back in, which failed miserably. There are fingerprints of those things here...
Tektonius of Bonisagus is another character I made for another saga, he had a twisted pater who inflicted Unstructured Caster and Rigid Magic on him... The character isn't exactly weak, though. He can effortlessly do Invisible sling of Vilano, for example... He'll probably make an appearance at Tribunal. He also has written two books on Architecture which are in Viscaria's possession... Anyway, Tektonius's pater is the apprentice to the character of the player whose invitation was rescinded. The rest, well, you can probably connect the dots.

I think being aware of our strengths and weaknesses is (way more than) half the battle!

Who said I'm aware. I lie to myself about tons of things.

You and me both, my friend... You and me both :laughing:

It seems I wasn't clear. This wasn't an attack on you!
What I meant was that Hiems had no idea how this could be done. He's not a big theorician, so I thought that better

But I did :smiley: My reasonning is below, and I hope you and Amul will find it helpful

My first thought was, indeed, to think of Merinita durations :wink: But I discarded it for a reason, and, with all due respect, I think you may have overlooked it and made an error.

IMO, it cannot be Not (Condition), since saying "somnifer" is not a "common physical condition" like "speaking".
So it must be If (condition), which is a specific condition, but is a ritual. Same thing with a Watching Ward
Maybe Somnifer had the time to cast it, but it would be (IMO) a waste of vis and overkill. Also, there were 2 effects, the beetles and the message
So no.

So how? Intangible tunnel. It was easy to him to cast a Touch Range, Sun duration tunnel (a lvl 10 spell!!!). And then, through it, an Intellego Mentem spell to warn him if Vin said "Somnifer" (Base 5, touch range, sun duration). And then? He could easily cast (and recast, and cast again!) the Beetles spells at touch range through the tunnel. And cast the CrMe spell that warned Vin of consequences.

Funnily, this is one of these few instances where corebook hermetic magic is better at doing something than fancy mysteries :smiley: Also, it is either coherent in the arts required (somnifer needs an average score in mentem) or easy (ReVi 10). It also means Somnifer can do it all throughout the day :smiling_imp:

Read this.

There's something murky here, and we need to have it clear, given the importance of the Aegis. I talked about this before, so you may recognize my thoughts.

If you've got a spell cast on you, be it beneficial or a curse, what happens when you enter a foreign Aegis?

Peregrine, as I understand it, thinks that the Aegis acts a lot like what Arya did: It has a PeVi effect that dispells the spells that can't pierce it. So, if flying over a foreign Aegis, you'd fall.
I don't like this, since this is PeVi, not ReVi, and it implies all sort of unpleasantness, like the flying bit above, but also that entering an aegis will clean you of any curse that might affect you (like Curse of Circe). I am also saddened to say that, if going by PeVi, Arya was right in that it should, like WomS, affect the Parma.

A similar, but better option, is to say that the Aegis supresses effects, which is something ReVi does. So, when entering a foreign Aegis, all the effects that don't penetrate are supressed until you get out. This won't save the falling magus, but it means that, if changed unto a Pig, you'll become a pig again once you exit the Aegis.

Then, there's my clear preference, and that's that Aegis works like the Parma, and will repell you if I put a spell on you.
So, if you happen to be flying over an aegis, you will be unable to enter it, instead of falling to your doom

That effectively makes magi like creatures of might which I really dislike. How about we just extend the aura of tingle to be outside the actual Aegis boundary, an early warning system that says continue at your own risk. You may lose any protective spells (cast at Touch range, not Per range, since those exist within the Parma Magica). Magi can choose to cross the Aegis or not. They have free will, and I really dislike (see I said it twice, so it probably means I hate this) and you get into pink dot territory with the Aegis. Humans have free will, enter the Aegis at your own risk, IMO they just need adequate warning to avoid entering the Aegis and losing any possible Enchantments...

Blocking is a capability given within the RAW, so I'm going to keep it. Now, Ulrich could have an imperfect understanding of the Aegis, he is an Apprentice, after all. Or not, and the effect is blocked at the edge and is stripped off her as she crosses the boundary, which I like better. She can move in, the effect can't. She chooses whether or not to do that...or in this case, Ulrich drags here across, and she doesn't have any choice, so Ulrich is making the choice on her behalf...

So, yes. We don't have any Merinita in this saga, if we did, I would have hashed this out long ago...
About the Conditional duration spells, HoH:MC says this. "Three other durations have conditions that must be built into the spell when it is designed, similar to the Until (Condition) Duration" and then it goes on to say that "A recurring spell must
be cast as a ritual" which suggests tat the condition durations are not exactly like Until, but similar. So if it is saying that when a spell can be cast with recurring features is a ritual, and specifying that, it is implicit that those durations are not rituals, but, and this is what would happen if we had a Merinita in this saga pursuing these mysteries, these spells are going to be bounded by a maximum duration of Moon, unless it is a ritual, and then year. The If already pays a +4 magnitudes for effectively being a year.

And, I had considered that as a possibility, too. Ars is a rich enough system that there are multiple ways to get from A to B. But you're thinking like a player designing for optimal effect. Somnifer is a character working with what he knows best.
Even if you want to insist that If condition requires it be a ritual, it doesn't require much of a nudge for me to push Somnifer into doing the ritual. This covenant has been locked away for 80+ years, stockpiling vis because they can't buy and sell, and experimenting with vis in a fairie aura is what thinned out the covenant rather quickly... Those who are left were those who were wise enough to save the vis for a rainy day. It's not hard to say that they have a hoard of vis that would dwarf most covenants.
And to be clear, there were not two effects, there was one effect. It was a CrIm(Me) who's inpiration was Weight of a Thousand Hells. Somnifer can create waking dreams, I've pretty much established that with Viscaria.