1222-1227 OOC

[amul]

@amul

I freely acknowledge that my viewpoint would probably be different if I wasn't the player trying to min-mix the loophole.

Again, I freely admit that my attitude on this is being wholly shaped by wanting to find every loophole I can in the enchanting rules. Unlike my current gripe with lab text restrictions, which I feel are a thematic failure, the Alchemy/Talisman loophole discussion was totally about me gunning for maximum numbers.

[jebrick]

@amul

@jebrick

@amul

A gripe about Lab Texts, beginning with my discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9003&view=unread#unread

It seems extremely counter-intuitive to me that a magus who has previously created an magic item, greater or lesser, cannot later use that lab text to instill the same effect in his own talisman. That, in fact, you cannot use any lab texts, ever, to instill effects into your talisman, unless you're rebuilding your talisman from your own notes.

The more I read the restrictions on Lab Texts for enchantments, the less sense they make, particularly when I focus on the sentences around "or vice versa."

At the very least, I think having a lab text for a similar enchantment should provide the sort of bonuses spells have for knowing similar spells, even if the previous lab text was for a lesser enchantment and the current work is for a greater enchantment or talisman. Come to that, I think that having a lab text for a similar spell should provide the same bonus as if you knew the spell in question), particularly given how often they emphasize that you're really inventing a brand new spell from scratch based on other people's notes.

I would disagree. If you have a lab text for putting DEO in a wand it would have things that are specific to that device. What might need to be done to put the same spell in a coin or sword would also be different. I would think less about the effect of the spell and more of the design of the item.

I agree that making a DEO wand would be mechanically different than making a DEO blasting ring. However, I'm talking about your talisman here. You should be familiar enough with your talisman that adding to it should be easy, not hard.

As per the RAW, I can't avail myself of any lab texts in order to add a power to my talisman. That means that my talisman will never have any powers in it more than half my lab total.

Here's an example from Viscaria's next five years:

In 1224.Spring, Viscaria will be enchanting The Candlewand, a greater device that has been opened with 6 pawns. She has a Lab Total of 69.

• Using a lab text written by someone else, she instills Unending Circles of Light, a CrIg 20 enchantment. She can only use this lab text if it is for adding that spell to a greater enchantment.
• Using a lab text written by someone else, she instills Home is a Hearthfire, a CrIg 25 enchantment. This lab text can only be for a greater enchantment, but it doesn't matter if it is for the same greater device that the other one was for.
  *She has 24 points of Lab Total left over, and has just generated personal versions of the lab texts for the other two spells, but cannot use either of them to instill one of these spells in her talisman. She can only use lab texts for spells she has already installed in her talisman, or create a new one of no greater than CrIg 12.

I fail to see the difference if your talisman is a ring and the lab text is for a wand. If your talisman and the enchanted device the lab text refers to is also a wand then we might have some similarities.

[amul]

By the rules, the "ring vs wand" argument only applies to lesser enchantments. If the lab text is for an effect which is part of a greater enchantment, than the lab text can be used on any greater enchantment [i]except for your talisman.[i]

Which is more Mythic?

• Seeking the lab texts of Flambeau's talisman so that you can instill them in your own, or one more reason for your magi to hide in his tower?

• Battling an enchanter who can attack you with every spell he was ever commissioned to enchant with a single device, or an enchanter carrying a dozen wands around with him?

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

We're pulling down 76 pawns of vis a year (not including the 24 pawns of Dedicated Rego Terram, which we haven't been including in the past), less the seven pawns we use for Aegis of the Hearth.

For 1222, we have two full members (Alexei and Fiona), since Apollodorus died and Fieltarn, Jormungandr, and Onesiphorus left. Korvin, Isen, Jacques, and Viscaria are probationary members. Full members get a full share, probationary members get a half.

In 1223, Korvin moves to Full Membership. In 1224, Isen, Jacques and Viscaria do.

So: (yay! A chart!)

[table][tr][td][u]Member[/u][/td]
[td][u]1222[/u][/td]
[td][u]1223[/u][/td]
[td][u]1224[/u][/td]
[td][u]1225[/u][/td]
[td][u]1226[/u][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Alexei[/td]
[td]19[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Fiona[/td]
[td]19[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Isen[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]8[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Jacques[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]8[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Korvin[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Viscaria[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[td]8[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]12[/td][/tr][/table]
This is assuming no other vis expenditures than the Aegis of the Hearth, and that we're still casting a Level 35 Aegis for the whole time.

Vis allowance is calculated for the year at the Winter Meeting and distributed at the following Spring Meeting, so you get your vis for 1223 at the first meeting in 1224, and is based on membership status at the Winter meeting.

Fiona is going to "set a good example" by deferring all her vis allowance until after Tribunal (unless something comes up where she needs vis).

((edited to account for the silver coins from the Temple of Janus))

[Jonathan.Link]

Add 10 pawns Creo from Temple of Janus, too.

[amul]

@Jonathan.Link

Add 10 pawns Creo from Temple of Janus, too.

So Alexei ends up doing that as part of Princeps duties?

[Jonathan.Link]

@amul

@Jonathan.Link

Add 10 pawns Creo from Temple of Janus, too.

So Alexei ends up doing that as part of Princeps duties?

I don't understand what you're asking? It's always the responsibility of the Princeps to ensure that vis is collected...
I didn't do the math on the chart, but it looked like it was including the Tropea, but not the Temple of Janus.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@Jonathan.Link

@amul

@Jonathan.Link

Add 10 pawns Creo from Temple of Janus, too.

So Alexei ends up doing that as part of Princeps duties?

I don't understand what you're asking? It's always the responsibility of the Princeps to ensure that vis is collected...
I didn't do the math on the chart, but it looked like it was including the Tropea, but not the Temple of Janus.

Right. I had forgotten about the Janus. 10 pawns of Creo per year, in winter. And the princeps doesn't have to collect it himself...he just has to see that it is. Delegation, mon cher!

[amul]

Whoa. Skill summa follow the same copying rules as Arts summa.

So Fiona's Scribe 2 + 1 Ordinary Mirror Bonus could copy 18 Levels of Arts/Summa or quickly copy 54 Levels in two seasons. Conceivably, that could be up to 10x L5 books on mundane skills. o.O

I like the idea of a book on Parma. I still say Creo would be a good move, since everyone but the apprentices are beyond it. No one touched the Penetration book. Is that because the SQ was so low?

[jebrick]

@amul

By the rules, the "ring vs wand" argument only applies to lesser enchantments. If the lab text is for an effect which is part of a greater enchantment, than the lab text can be used on any greater enchantment [i]except for your talisman.[i]

Which is more Mythic?

• Seeking the lab texts of Flambeau's talisman so that you can instill them in your own, or one more reason for your magi to hide in his tower?

• Battling an enchanter who can attack you with every spell he was ever commissioned to enchant with a single device, or an enchanter carrying a dozen wands around with him?

It is most probably a balance issue but could be explained that the Talisman is considered a part of you and thus has more astrological considerations than a enchanted item.

[The_Fixer]

Noticed some things on the magi planning:

• On Winter 1227, both Fiona and Alexei study from The Stag, The Hound, and The Prince of the Seven Crowns. It's easy for one of them to switch.
• On Spring 1226, Korvin learns Leap of Homecoming from a lab text. We have a text?

@Jonathan.Link

Moved this over here. See above, about my post about combat. While Isen is a worthy combatant, your character is also going to be quite busy with Tria... Not that you can't do both, but I ask you to really weigh where you can focus your attention...

Tria.

This concerns the covenant, an ally and our ennemies. As isen sees it, fiona's travel can wait if he's needed by her. If she chooses to go without him, it's because she thinks she can manage. As a adult maga, he expects her to know that, and be able to decide.

@amul

Seriously, guys, somebody has to do it. Somebody has to start casting the higher Aegis. Viscaria showed up and took over a major time sink (admittedly for her own purposes). Fiona is spending two seasons scribing for the covenant. Other magi have to do service seasons too. If we were running the campaign linearly, then we'd run a Council Meeting wherein we mention all the tasks outstanding that need to be done and offer payments of vis to entice people to do them.

I know, and Isen is quite conscious of it, too. As Rego is his specialty, he sees it as his duty to do it and to ensure the covenant is safe.

I've currently sent Isen on the road to learn the 10th magnitude Aegis. I'm currently (winter 1224 in what I did) at lab total 44 and CT 32.
Once he's learned greek, he'll try to learn from Appolodorus book once per year, learning each covenant Aegis in succession. That way, he should be able to learn the 10th mag aegis it in 6-7 seasons. He could sooner, with help, but he's not the kind to ask for it: He's used to manage things on his own.

He also wants to learn one of our wizard's communion (he can already), for obvious reasons. He'll do it in Spring 1225, if he can.
Likewise, he'll learn the Watching Ward he brought with him. That way, he'll be able to cast any such spell that the council asks for. He'll try to propose putting traps for invaders, at least one such ward per year. He will try to work with Viscaria and Alexei to develop covenant defenses.

@amul

As per the RAW, I can't avail myself of any lab texts in order to add a power to my talisman. That means that my talisman will never have any powers in it more than half my lab total.

Err... No. You can spend multiple seasons investing an effect, you don't have to do it all at once

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

Fiona is going to "set a good example" by deferring all her vis allowance until after Tribunal (unless something comes up where she needs vis).

Isen will only stockpile the 4 pawns of rego vis that comes from his source (probably not counted here). That way, he won't weaken the covenant.
The rest, he'll give back to the covenant, just like fiona.

@amul

I like the idea of a book on Parma.

Isen would write one, but he sucks at it It would take him 9 seasons to write a lvl 05 parma, and it would only be Quality 4
LIkewise, he can write a tractatus about it, but it's only Q4
He is, of course, interested about buying tractati on parma, but, well...

[amul]

@The Fixer

Noticed some things on the magi planning:

• On Winter 1227, both Fiona and Alexei study from The Stag, The Hound, and The Prince of the Seven Crowns. It's easy for one of them to switch.
• On Spring 1226, Korvin learns Leap of Homecoming from a lab text. We have a text?

I thought somebody promised to write one out...or, we can use the excuse of the upcoming Tribunal to trade like madmen for lab texts...

@amul

Seriously, guys, somebody has to do it. Somebody has to start casting the higher Aegis. Viscaria showed up and took over a major time sink (admittedly for her own purposes). Fiona is spending two seasons scribing for the covenant. Other magi have to do service seasons too. If we were running the campaign linearly, then we'd run a Council Meeting wherein we mention all the tasks outstanding that need to be done and offer payments of vis to entice people to do them.

I know, and Isen is quite conscious of it, too. As Rego is his specialty, he sees it as his duty to do it and to ensure the covenant is safe.

I was sort of hoping that somebody would be spending seasons cataloguing A's sanctum.

Should V be trying to learn Wizard's Communion somewhere in this mess?

@amul

As per the RAW, I can't avail myself of any lab texts in order to add a power to my talisman. That means that my talisman will never have any powers in it more than half my lab total.

Err... No. You can spend multiple seasons investing an effect, you don't have to do it all at once
[/quote]
Oh, I suppose that's true. I often forget about the multiple seasons thing. Still, I think it's incoherent and decreases adventuring opportunities to go seeking valuable texts for your talisman.

@amul

I like the idea of a book on Parma.

Isen would write one, but he sucks at it It would take him 9 seasons to write a lvl 05 parma, and it would only be Quality 4
LIkewise, he can write a tractatus about it, but it's only Q4
He is, of course, interested about buying tractati on parma, but, well...

I meant for Fiona to copy a book on Parma while she's at Durenmar, among other things.

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

@amul

@The Fixer

Noticed some things on the magi planning:

• On Winter 1227, both Fiona and Alexei study from The Stag, The Hound, and The Prince of the Seven Crowns. It's easy for one of them to switch.

Like JL pointed out, Fiona did call it first. But if Gunnar's busy and can't do something over the winter, I'm sure we can work out a deal.

@amul

@The Fixer

• On Spring 1226, Korvin learns Leap of Homecoming from a lab text. We have a text?

I thought somebody promised to write one out...or, we can use the excuse of the upcoming Tribunal to trade like madmen for lab texts...

Like I said, Fiona's old covenant has both Corpus and Animal versions of Leap of the Homecoming if we want to trade for one (or both, for whatever reason).

@Amul

I was sort of hoping that somebody would be spending seasons cataloguing A's sanctum.

I'm waiting on a response to my question as to whether it looks like a seasonal project or something that could be done in a few days, or weeks, and (at worst) count as a Distraction from a seasonal activity.

@Amul

Should V be trying to learn Wizard's Communion somewhere in this mess?

I believe so...as well as anyone else who doesn't already know it, considering that Wards and Aegises have to penetrate. The higher level we can get with the lowest Casting Total, and thus the most Penetration, the better, methinks.

@Amul

@The Fixer

@amul

I like the idea of a book on Parma.

Isen would write one, but he sucks at it It would take him 9 seasons to write a lvl 05 parma, and it would only be Quality 4
LIkewise, he can write a tractatus about it, but it's only Q4
He is, of course, interested about buying tractati on parma, but, well...

I meant for Fiona to copy a book on Parma while she's at Durenmar, among other things.

I'm down with a Parma summa. Do we want Fiona to copy quickly (getting thrice the levels but losing 1 from the Source Quality of each book), or copy carefully (getting one or two books at the original SQ)?

[Jonathan.Link]

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

@Amul

I was sort of hoping that somebody would be spending seasons cataloguing A's sanctum.

I'm waiting on a response to my question as to whether it looks like a seasonal project or something that could be done in a few days, or weeks, and (at worst) count as a Distraction from a seasonal activity.

Well, getting to Greek 4 is necessary to do it.
And there's the issue of Apollodorus's lab at the pied-à-terre...

[jebrick]

@Jonathan.Link

@Peregrine_Bjornaer

@Amul

I was sort of hoping that somebody would be spending seasons cataloguing A's sanctum.

I'm waiting on a response to my question as to whether it looks like a seasonal project or something that could be done in a few days, or weeks, and (at worst) count as a Distraction from a seasonal activity.

Well, getting to Greek 4 is necessary to do it.
And there's the issue of Apollodorus's lab at the pied-à-terre...

Jacques can do it in 1226 or Korvin in 1225.1 as precepts.

[jebrick]

@The Fixer

Noticed some things on the magi planning:

• On Winter 1227, both Fiona and Alexei study from The Stag, The Hound, and The Prince of the Seven Crowns. It's easy for one of them to switch.
• On Spring 1226, Korvin learns Leap of Homecoming from a lab text. We have a text?

Korvin has that as a placeholder for Alexei making the lab text or Fiona bring one back from copying. Looks like neither will happen in the 5 years so it will be a push.

[Jonathan.Link]

((I'm not sure if the Hermes Portal is up, it hadn't been decided, as far as I know. I'm not clear how you're intending to use the portal, either.))

[qcipher]

For the Mr. Walid thread, is there something I need to do? I held off the roll for Brionne, I figured there was some kind of description at the scene first.

Is anyone playing Brionne or Michelle?

[Peregrine_Bjornaer]

((I was under the impression that it would be just for the one year, and that to make it easier for people to get to Harco for the transition after the wave of magicides back in '22. Do we want to be seen as "important" enough to warrant keeping a HP to the Mercere Domus Magnus all the time?))

[Jonathan.Link]

With a return of 70 pawns of Vis it is reasonable to presume you can at least make the fee House Mercere charges back. Still out the Vis for the ritual, but who has plans for the ReTe Vis otherwise?