1227.2t Dinner And A Show

Stultus shakes his head at both Fiona and Alexei. "I think you are missing what Gerulf is saying, Sodales. At least, if I understand him correctly. We make changes to things with both Muto and Rego, yes. Thing is, that's not in keeping with the classical view of the world. I think what Gerulf is getting at -- and please, Gerulf, correct me if I am wrong -- is that we can make progressively smaller changes with Rego. Smaller and smaller. What happens when we get down to the basic components of all matter, the things Democritos called atomoi -- indivisibles? Could we make changes with Rego that would otherwise require Muto? And if we can -- what does that say about the separation of Rego and Muto? Could Bonisagus' theory be wrong where those two Techniques are concerned?"

He grins at Gerulf, looking a trifle awed. "I've always assumed that the differences between Aristotelian philosophy and Hermetic magic pointed to an error in Aristotle's thinking. After all, Creo reaches into the Platonic Realm of Forms, and Aristotle says there's no such thing. But if you're right, and the disparity is due to Hermetic Theory being wrong... the implications are simply staggering."

In theory, Rego could be used to grow something. We know that Rego is normally for natural things. By this I mean that it is natural for the foal Gestures to Alexei to grow into a horse. It is the alteration of quality. To change water into steam Rego manipulates the particles in the water. Adding more hot and airy particles and removing some moist particles. Muto does the alteration by manipulating the categories of qualities. Changing the shape, color and smell. Turing a man into a pig would not change the inherent nature of the man. He would look and smell like a pig but still be effected by Corpus spells. Korvin looks to Fiona to see if he got it right.

Now my understanding of the theory that Gerulf has mentioned is changing the quality of growth and diminution. Normally this is done with Muto but in theory, you could use Rego to attract hot and dry particles to an object and make it grow. You could control it's weight be increasing the earth particles that have a downward pull or decrease the weight by adding more airy or hot particles. At least that was the theory explained to me by a drunk elementalist.

Alexei seems incredulous.

"There is an interesting topic of discussion, of affecting the atomoi. The problem is you cannot see nor sense something so small, so how can you affect it? And before you mention the possibility of an arcane connection, your arcane connection would be the specimen itself and you are caught in paradox like Zeno once posed."

Tranquillina has sat mostly silent since she sent Loys off to fetch Obesarus's Commentary. (He returned several minutes ago, but the conversation was so vigorous that Tranquillina bade him place the volume carefully on a side table, which she motioned Choiniere to clean for him. The servant and the other kitchen staff seemed a bit nonplussed by the loss of one of their staging surfaces, but a sharp glance from the maga, together with the well-known stories of people becoming ill when they disagree with her, squashed any protestation.) She was going to respond to Fiona's direct query about her foundational descriptions of the Techniques, but when Alexei quickly offered up his opinion she simply smiled at Fiona and kept listening. It is true that Tranquillina would enjoy a conversation on Magic Theory at any time, no matter its length, and she certainly follows the debate with attentive eyes and ears; but her mind is currently focused upon gauging the levels of training of the newcomers in Hermetic theory, as well as their raw intelligence. After nearly half an hour of calm analysis over the rim of the drink she is nursing, she feels that she has a pretty accurate judgment of the people at the table in these regards. ((Per 2 + Magic Theory 7+2 + stress die 7 = 18; Per 2 + Folk Ken 3 + stress die 8 = 13.))

Her first mild surprise is that Gerulf, while certainly well deserving of his recent success in his Theoretical Interview, is not quite as advanced in his study as she might have expected from a newly Gauntleted Bonisagus. At least he appears stronger than typical new magi from other Houses (although Rose, from her few comments - and their stunning encounter four years prior - seems his match). To Tranquillina's amazement, the clown Stultus demonstrates quite a decent grasp of theory, particularly as it relates to Philosophiae (or so she imagines, that field not being one of her strengths). And all three applicants demonstrate a keen and noticeable acumen, shunning easily countered arguments and perceiving the nuances and assumptions in others' statements. (Yet every time she appreciates the validity of a notion expressed by Stultus, his smug turns of phrase remind her that no Tytalus is to be trusted....) She smiles at Gerulf's youthful idealism - did she herself ever dream so large, about the limits of magic?! - but approves of his ambitious approach; she shakes her head slightly, but with equal fondness, at Alexei's hasty errors; she wonders yet again just what Fiona can accomplish with her strange herbs and unnamed concoctions. As usual, Korvin impresses her with his deep understanding of the Founder's theory; with his organizational skills as well, he sometimes seems more like a Bonisagi than a Mercere, and certainly puts the lie to those who deem all "Redcaps" as second-class members of the Order.

Seeing an opening, Tranquillina places her half-empty cup before her on the table. "One must be careful to distinguish," she offers, "between two different interpretations of the matter under discussion. The more 'heretical', if I may use that term without prejudice, is to suggest that Rego can be harnessed to precipitate precisely the same effects as Muto, perhaps by fine control of these atomoi as you speculate." Her vague gesture around the table doesn't really single out whom she considers to have speculated this. "That is a theory worthy of investigation, with all due skepticism of course, but with eagerness as well. Less drastic, but still of significant interest to us practitioners, is the ability to use Rego to accomplish the same tasks as other Techniques can, but via its own mechanisms. For example, we can cure an illness in a traveler using Creo Corpus magic - or battle wounds as well, though you might not think it so to see our brave Hoplite sitting here untreated!" She winks at Alexei's hearty laugh. "But can that illness also be treated by directly manipulating, using Rego, the balance of humors within the traveler's body? One could achieve in a moment the same benefit that a physician's regimen might have on ... the humors." She stops herself from trying to enumerate the humors, unsure of her knowledge of medicine.

As the conversation moves on, Tranquillina realizes that she can truly be considered something of an expert in Hermetic theory. Of course Maximianus's training, abridged though it was, formed the primary basis for her knowledge; but she has studied hard over the decades since her apprenticeship, and it is satisfying to feel secure (even momentarily) against judgment in that arena. She lifts her goblet to Choiniere to be filled, enjoying the idea that she needn't be on guard every second of her life against accusations of inferiority.

Roberto rolls his eyes :unamused:

And then Roberto proceeds to bust out laughing a hearty guffaw!

Then he calms down, drinks his wine and chews a loaf of bread. Snickers. Grabs some cheese maybe. Snickers again...
Then the topic turns to magic theory, and he gets bored and mingles with some of the grogs to find something more interesting to talk about.

[color=blue]"Actually, when Atsingani was stealing our sheep a few years ago, I was able to break their control of one via Animal by turning it into a man. Since he was no longer a sheep, the Animal spell had no more hold over him."

((Fiona will contribute more to the conversation than I am able to, since I know basically nothing about Aristotlean metaphysics, have never heard of aition before, and so forth. I'll chip in what I can, but... shrug ))

Fiona chuckles at this little display, but will occasionally shoot Stultus a thoughtful, almost appraising look.

(( Aition is usually translated as 'cause'. The problem is that it's a misleading translation, since it has very little to do with 'cause' as WE think of it, in the terms of 'cause and effect'. I figured since Stultus likely read Aristotle in the original Greek, he'd just use the Greek word rather than fumble for a translation. ))

((Yeah. Same here. I'm out of my depth as a player, especially being so new to the game. So that really stunts Gerulf's story when he should be rather learned on these matters. Just assume he has a few minor things to add to the conversation.))

((Arts and Academe. both a boon and ban to ArM5. After the House of Hermes books, it is the one I recommend getting.))

We are manipulating the atomoi now Alexei just with a shovel. To change water into ice with rego is removing the hot dry particles from the water. Gerulf just would like to see if he can invent finer tools.

"And if he can -- why, that opens up a whole range of possibilities for yet a third Technique," muses the dwarf. "Particles are just particles, after all. Combine them in a right way and in the correct proportion, and you should, theoretically, be able to not only alter things, but create them without resorting to Creo! Can you imagine the possibilities? Stone... wood... bone and blood!?"

He considers for a moment. "Probably wouldn't be able to create living beings. You'd need control over the essence of a thing, not merely the matter which composes it and its various attributes. Even if we could affect it with Hermetic magic, which I don't believe we can, that gets quite confusing. That section of the Metaphysics gave me a headache for three weeks."

"Agreed, but we are manipulating them on the whole. If you were to reach downwards...inwards? To reach down so small to affect them at such a small scale, you need to be able to sense them, that is the essence of this theory no? But again it comes back to affecting something you cannot perceive." Alexei shrugs. "Perhaps I lack the imagination. I do not think Bonisagus's theory allows for this, but his theory is not yet finished aye? Perhaps this is the divergent reasoning that leads to breakthroughs. I admire such efforts and hope it proves fruitful."

((Addendum to my previous post, as a result of a couple of messages.))

Fiona chuckles at this little display, but will occasionally shoot Stultus a thoughtful, almost appraising look.

Apparently Fiona's poker face isn't what it normally is ((Com 2 + Guile (Hide true feelings) 3 + (die roll of 0, but not a botch) = 5)), so anyone who beats a 5 can tell that she seems to be...figuring the logistics of a tryst with Stultus.

(( So... that'd be more of a pokhim face, then? ))
(( Sorry, couldn't resist. :smiley: ))

((If the Magic Theory discussion has wound down, shall we take a break between dinner and dessert and split up into three small groups, one with each of the applicants? We can get a chance to ask frank questions and give frank information about Mons Electi's enemies. Sound good?))

(( Sounds great to me.

As a suggestion, let's split each conversation off into its own separate thread, and let's remain intentionally vague about precisely who's where. The idea is to let the existing Mons Electi magi roleplay simultaneously in as many of the threads as they wish.
Or we could RP the three out simultaneously and then say they took place sequentially. That'll give Mons Electi folks the freedom to participate in all three as well without putting eddies in the IC space-time continuum. Damn those Eddies, they get everywhere. :smiley:))

((I would ignore Rose for the moment as she is an NPC and also has a complete understanding of our situation. she knows exactly what she is getting into. That being said it can be a single thread since there are no secrets and some of us do not need more threads to track all the time and force them into a timeline.))

(( You are saying keep it in this thread?))

((Yes. I do not think we are going to line people up in a Star Chamber mode for interviews. Everyone is in the room that needs to be and we can send the servants away if people are worried.))

(( Works for this Tytalus. :smiley: ))