6th Edition: FATE?

I have seen a lot of characters massing out a +12 to their area of specialty really fast. Reaching ability 8 is difficult, but since puissant pretty much gives you +2 ability levels, reaching level 6 (plus puissant and stat +3) is easy.

If you look at the difficulty levels to do the cool stuff in ArM5 you will notice that you need ability 7+ to do most of the really cool stuff while hexing, making items as per city and guild or other similar stuffs. Level 5 in an ability is said to be that of a master in some places, but as per the RAW (I think it was in C&G) the master for a trade guild is ability 7.

Tops being 5 is a legacy staterment from 3rd edition, I think. It was not true in 4th for sure.

Cheers,
Xavi

Right. I read a lot about starting generalist magi able to take down Might 40 demons in about a round and a half, and "average" characters with high ability scores, yet I've never really seen that in play. I suspect that they're actually not as generalist or average as initially portrayed.

However, for a decent above average character, +8 (including stat, ability, specialty) is perfectly viable. If the character is particularly specialised, then you can expect a Puissant in there somewhere. And throw in an Affinity and you really do get a character that faces very few challenges in their particularly narrow focus.

But I don't view a pre-roll Ability Score of 10 as "perfectly normal". For young to middle-aged characters it's anything but.

1 Like

Salvete, Sodales!

Actually, Xavi, here you are wrong. The numbers I used were those from C&G, p. 42:

apprentice ability 3 age 10-20
Journeyman ability 5 age 20-30
Master ability 5-6 age 30-40
Senior Master ability 7 age 40-50
Dean ability 7 age 50+

And for most people this is rather reasonable, if you consider the following aspects:
While you are an apprentice you will get one season of training per year, another will be spent on pracicing, the last two will only get you exposure experience, and those as well as some of the practice-seasons won't always be spent on your craft. For the journeyman it might be the same (if he is lucky), but here the master isn't really obliged to teach him as directly as before.
Most certainly, after having become a master in one craft and setting up shop, only few people get trained in their craft any further, their advance solely comes from practice and exposure. Aditionally there are so many other ways to spend these XP on: bargain (unless you want to ruin yourself), intrigue (guild politics), leadership (perhaps even teaching) (you have journeymen and apprentices of your own), area lore, charm, carouse, brawl, folk ken (just the stuff everybody living in a society needs). As long as you are good enough in your craft to not get complaints you don't really need to improve this very fast.

So, I think the numbers are pretty reasonable for most people, but as I claimed in my previous post, many PCs live under rather special conditions.

Vale, Alexios ex Miscellanea
Later on

1 Like

Actually I once calculated my own university XP. I seem to have ended up with economics 3 and econometrics 2, for example with average values gained per season. Exposure in social skills :stuck_out_tongue: Ability would be 4-5 if you took profession economist to encompass all the abilities learned in the career.

Taking down might 40 creatures in a round and a half is not something that happens IMS without important preparations, but it can be done by generalist magi given a season or 2 of driven focus in achieving it by the whole covenant. Communion and multipliers are important here, but it can be done in several rounds (less than a minute). You need to focus on that, but as expressed in other posts what bothers me is that this is achievable 10 years past apprenticeship on a regular basis instead of the stuff of legends achievable once in a liftime after rolling 2 consecutive 1s and a 9 AND being lucky ABOVE that (higher purpose or driving goal character).

Cheers,
Xavi

Then again, your degree took what - three, perhaps four years to study for (unless you have a doctorate or similar, in which case I stand corrected.

According to RAW, the Magister in Artibus requires eight years of study, and two teaching (additional exposure XP),

That may result in slightly higher skill levels,

1 Like

A 5 is a rather poor or very new "master".
8 isnt the slightest odd or drastically high.
18, now that is rare. And "Mythic" is when someone goes fanatic at it and gets an Ability up in the high 20s.

Add Affinity or Puissant and you get an effective Ability Score of 5 from just 50 or 30 XP respectively.
Thats just a mere 3-7 seasons worth of Training. Without either its still just 7-10 seasons worth of Training.
Totally realistic over the training time of an Apprentice up to Journeyman. And not counting any Practise or Exposure XP during the same time.

We already have 12 years of study before entering university. If we remove elementary school and start when greek/latin were taught, we still have studied 6 years. I'd say middle school covers trivium and high school is quadrivium.

It should mean someone who can do professional level work without substantial risk of failure. A master jeweler can make rings or other ornaments for rich merchants or nobles without making a die roll. Something out of the ordinary for a king maybe involves risk. A master carpetner can make nice furniture without a die roll. A master chef is going to make a tasty catered meal without a die roll. A master at Arts Liberales can write a book without making a roll.

In general, a professional should be able to judge what's within his nearly certain capabilities in a normal period of time, what's nearly certain if he takes extra time, and what's beyond his capabilities.

1 Like

As far as FATE goes, while I like it, I think it would totally change Ars Magica - it would no longer be the same game. I would not like that. Instead, I really appreciate the way David Chart has refined the game in 5th edition while keeping it true to its original design.

As far as Abilities are concerned, the way I look at it is the following.

Assume a character is apprenticed at age 8 or so. He gets 7 years of training/exposure etc. Assuming 1 season of training (from someone with a score of 6) and 1 of exposure/year in his main ability, this means 11 xp/year in that ability. At 15 years of age he is basically an adult and a journeyman, has 77 experience points (a score of 5(2)), and a fairly solid competence. A better or worse teacher and/or an earlier/later apprenticeship can anticipate/delay this by a few years, but not much more.

At that point, assume he works on his trade for 2 seasons/year, spending 2 out of the 4 exposure points on the main ability, and perhaps practices that ability one season every two years. This means 4 more xp per year in that ability. At 25 he has 117 xp, for a score of 6(12). At 35 it's 157 xp, for a score of 7(17). At 45 it's 197xp, for a score of 8(17). And at 60 the character may retire, with 257xp and a score of 9(32). I would consider such a character a fairly typical practitioner of his trade. He's not particularly gifted (no affinity, puissant ability). He's getting solid, but not amazing training as an apprentice. And while he is putting some effort into his ability as he matures, well, he is not obsessing about it: he is spending only half his exposure on his main trade, and of his "free" time only one season out of four actively trying to improve himself.

On the other hand an exceptional character with an affinity in the ability and the drive to become a renown master of his craft should easily get ability scores that are much higher - 11 (275xp) by the time he is 35, and easily 15 (600xp) by the time he is 60 (remember that if you are really good, you earn your keep more quickly and thus you have more free time).

And a covenant that really pushes to cultivate a specific ability over multiple generations of craftsmen, ensuring older ones pass all their knowledge to the younger ones before retiring, after a century can easily have specialists that, even without an affinity, have ability scores around 20 or so.

1 Like

Yup, thats probably a pretty decent assumption of a common/non-exceptional character.

This is where you need to decide how high-fantasy you want your game to be. Are covenants more or less equivalent to mortal institutions -- monastaries, manors, or universities -- or have they used their mystical abilities and longevity to become better than mundanes? I think you can make a logical argument for answering this question either way, so it's down to the way your tastes as a player or storyguide run.

1 Like

I've actually become quite fond of the FATE system myself and think a conversion of Ars Magica to it would be -awesome-.

I've been considering and tinkering a bit myself, though not terribly seriously.

I would at this point suggest a sort of hybrid approach using much of the Dresden Files RPG approach supplemented by the use of things from Legends of Anglerre.

dresdenfilesrpg.com/

cubicle-7.com/legends/legends.php

FATE as a system is more 'rules lite' than Ars Magica, by far, but still crunchy in some ways. It can be made more crunchy to accomodate some aspects of the Ars Magica magic system fairly easily I think.

The interesting aspects of the FATE system are in the use of Aspects and Fate points/compels etc. to affect the roleplay. The core elements of the system, to give people an idea of how it works, are available as a free download here.

faterpg.com/

Aspects are basically like a pithy one-liner descriptor of some 'aspect' of a thing. Be that a person, object, creature, or place etc. These aspect descriptors are very much available for in-game useage by the mechanics of the system. A large part of 'statting up' a character or encounter etc. is writing up the aspects it has. A lot of actions in the game revolve around creating new aspects on things or discovering what aspects they already have, and then employing them.

The aspect system allows for an interesting sharing of the the narrative authority between players and SG.

For instance knowledge skills make an interesting use of the Declaration rules system. Say you run into a Yellow-Bellied-Snot-Nosed-Green-Back-Trog, and you make a knowledge check to come up with some sort of useful knowledge about them. In most games, Ars no exception, the GM is left trying to come up with something to tell you and most of the time, frankly, you get the short end of the stick and brief 'Ummm, here is what I can remember right now' but nothing truly useful.

In FATE the guy using the academic/knowledge skill get the narrative authority in a limited way. He gets to declare a new aspect, and describe it a little bit, subject to group/SG approval, describing the new knowledge of this thing that he is bringing into play. So he gets to, say, declare that from now on the Yellow-Bellied-Snot-Nosed-Green-Back-Trogs are all 'Afraid of Daylight', with a brief explanation as to why. And that new 'Afraid of Daylight' Aspect on them is permanent and can be used in the aspect mechanics like normal.

It is interesting and I like the way it A) spreads around some narrative authority around the group and B) makes skills such as academics/knowledges no longer so lackluster.

1 Like

A 6th edition using FATE woudl be a 6th edition I never bought

Likewise.

Tastes differ. My own response to that is, "It is irritating, and I despise the way it A) destroys any sense of coherence and consistency in the world and B) makes skills such as academics/knowledges no longer meaningful."

It depends. It would not work well for my troupe (even if we play rules light) but it would work GREAT for the one on one spinoff minisagas we play with my flatmate :slight_smile: Depends on the players, really, and what you expect out of the system.

Cheers,
Xavi

I like (and use) the idea of handing narrative control to the players and I tend to use that in scenes to support their actions rather than to fill in the background. How many times have you, as a storyguide, been asked "is there a chair here", or "hmm, I need a window... is there a window"? For just about all the bog-standard things that any player or storyguide would naturally assume to be present in a given scene, I just go with the flow. I'm not an overly-prescriptive Storyguide.

I do tend to draw the line at having players just make information up. It's a shared world, but if you want to know something about my five-horned bestial servant of the Corrupters, I'll dish the information. I have enough trouble keeping track of my own thoughts let along having to keep track of those being contributed by the players.

1 Like

Maybe we should bring back Whimsey Cards.

If I miss anything from 3rd ed. (actually, I'm ashamed to realize I miss several :slight_smile:), it's probably the power range of abilities.

This is my position. The office desk will have a selection of pens, an holepunch and a stapler unless there is some special reason for it not to have one. Office desk, in a description, is supposed to convey that sort of information. Having a dark, damp interior room suddenly acquire a window, or my vampires be revealed to actually be blood drinking wolves with pale coats who shapechange into men and despoil libraries ... that's where I draw the line.

1 Like

That is pretty easy to do :slight_smile: The idea to spend a fate point so you have an axe, a bottle of gas and a rope in your trunk is not THAT weird either instead of having to have to ask the SG if you packed this or that :slight_smile:

Cheers,
Xavi

1 Like