A Bonisagus Magus takes an apprentice of another Magus...

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

Some lies are easily disproved, some are more insidious, and there is no easy way to convince people that it's lies, and that the suspect knew it was lies. Besides, rumors may have gone around the tribunal twice before the truth has put its boots on.

I meant the tremere would challenge his former apprentice in a public certamen, in order to assess his progress. Of course, the Bonisagus or the apprentice could decline the challenge, but that would be an admission of weakness, and would give more weight to rumors.

22

One can't challenge an apprentice, the apprentice doesn't have any standing with respect to the Code, and there is no dispute between the magus and his former apprentice. I'd say a public challenge of this sort would do more to work against the Tremere, than for him. He would look like a bully by challenging the apprentice. Of course the full Tremere magus, with his focus in Certamen is going to win against an apprentice who may not even have any Art scores above 0, yet (there's a lot to teach besides the Arts, and opening the Arts happens first). The age doesn't say enough about how far along in the apprenticeship he is. And, the Bonisagus can always hire a champion, maybe even a champion of House Tremere, perhaps, if the House isn't behind what the Tremere is doing, this is certainly possible, and it becomes a public rebuke of the Tremere who lost his apprentice.

Taking one apprentice, as is the Bonisagus's right under the Code should have some social repercussions, but it shouldn't amount to everyone in the Tribunal being turned against them. It could involve someone who was a weak ally being neutral towards them now. Someone neutral towards the Tremere might be more favorable. A whisper campaign based on truth can be started, a whisper campaign based on lies will likely reach the ear of Redcaps, the inveterate gossips of the Order, and perhaps even a Trianomae, such as the Tenens for that particular area. These are all activities that need to develop in the fullness of time, though. It could be that the Bonisagus took the apprentice for a reason and invents a marvelous breakthrough with the apprentice's help. Won't the Tremere and all who supported him look foolish and petty for their acts against the Bonisagus? If nothing special comes of the apprentice, or the Bonisagus's work, won't he look foolish and petty, especially if he develops a habit of Boni-snatching?

Doissetep could leverage a campaign to wrest political power back from the PC covenant. Tribunal decisions could begin to be decided in the favor of Doissetep, rather than the PC covenant, because while the PC magi are busy training apprentices, or wresting on their laurels, Doissetep is now focused on rebuilding their political capital. Or something.

Simple fact is, all suggestions, including mine, are speculative, because we don't know the structure of that Tribunal in the OP's saga. He wanted suggestions that would allow a response within the Code. I've seen a lot of suggestions that could potentially be proven to be outright Code violations, especially if the Tremere and/or Doissetep isn't subtle and also patient.

23

The goal would not be for the Tremere magus to win the certamen (ofc he would if he really tries), but to show the apprentice's strength and progress, much like Tremere gauntlets work. By acting this way, the Tremere doesn't intend to bully the Bonisagus or the apprentice, he just makes sure that the Bonisagus is taking the apprentice in good faith, for good reasons (which seems not to be the case according to the SG).

24

It doesn't make for the most immediate story but there's also the possibility that the Tremere will do nothing... yet. He'll watch and wait for the perfect time, when the PCs are just one toe over the line and then the Quaesitors sudden pay the worst timed visit ever. Or that critical resource they were working for? Suddenly vacuumed up by Doissetep. Trying to recruit grogs? Strange, but they all seemed to have been warned off or already hired...

It'd make for a good reason for things to suddenly get a lot worse just when it is the most dramatic moment for them to do so. Or it could be a long campaign of nasty but legal moves that require making a peace with the Tremere in some fashion to end.

25

I just see that the Bonisagus claimed an apprentice. I think you're shading the intent. If anything the OP wants the apprentice to be a thorn in the side of the Bonisagus and, if possible, any responses from Doissetep to be within the Code, but yet send a clear signal to the PC covenant that they aren't happy about the Bonisagus exercising his rights.

Even though Bonisagus have this right, I generally view this transaction as including some kind of payment. It might be overly generous or it might be a pittance, but the idea is that the Bonisagus is trying to defray some of the costs related to training the apprentice to his present level, and possibly any expected benefits the former master expected to receive from an apprentice. This isn't at all required under the Code, but Bonisagus who do this will generally go a long way towards avoiding a lot of political implications from Boni-snatching. Maybe something can be suggested by friendly NPCs, evidence of this existing within former Tribunal records, etc.

26

Chiarina, can you explain the circumstances the Bonisagus took the apprentice? Does he have decent levels of OoH Lore (specific to the tribunal in which he resides) or Area Lore for the Tribunal? Was he apprenticed/raised within the Tribunal, or is he an expatriate of sorts? Does he have social skills worth anything?

All of the Tribunals have their own social mores. Provencal, not having a current sourcebook, doesn't have any defined, but it is possible to back-engineer this, if he just decided to exercise his right, but didn't consider the implications of doing so.

For an example of social mores, in Doctorcomic's apprentice saga, my PC's domina is his domina because she violated the social mores of the Tribunal. There were consequences to her actions, even though she was within her legal rights under the Code to challenge more senior magi in the Tribunal for the right to take an apprentice. The biggest consequence is that she risked being ostracized, that is until my character did something that made it look like she was punished enough (that's the hope, anyway, don't know how it's all turned out) by taking my PC as an apprentice. Your tribunal may not have ostracism, but it might explain why other covenants all start acting cool or distant from the PC covenant, that in this Tribunal, Bonisagus who exercise their rights of Boni-snatching are generally expected to pay something. Until he does, the other covenants turn away from the PC covenant. This works better if the Bonisagus was more concerned about the what, rather than the how, or at least how to do things properly, and he's a social and political noob. :smiley:

27

I was refering to this quote :

If the Bonisagus really does this to weaken Doisstep, he will most probably not repay anything, and Doisstep magi may understand his reasons for claiming the apprentice.

28

Allright. He entered apprenticeship with the usual 6 year. If all goes the usual way he has 6 more years until he finishes.

Was it wrong, to open this thread? I can´t tell you everything, because then nobody would read this thread. Furthermore in our saga, some details are still open, not everything is defined. Some more information is demanded. I happily answer your questions:

The Bonisagus Magus is not at home at the Provence tribunal, but lives there for quite a while. He has decent levels of OoH Lore, yes. His social skills are not his focus, but he is not a barbarian. In my eyes, the taking of the apprentice is a little bit more than the usual taking-advantage-of-the-code, because the two covenants are rivals. The Bonisagus went to Doissetep, planted himself in the bailey and claimed his code-given right to take this apprentice. It was legal, but bold, too. Because it is inside the code, Doissetep abandoned the apprentice with gritted teeth.

I´m searching for an adequate answer.

Chiarina

29

pyrale: Ahh, I had missed that! Thanks! I kept going back to the OP.

So, if the Boni-snatcher isn't politically astute, doesn't have decent social skills, and didn't bother to consult with anyone, and decided to act on naked ambition, he may have ignored/not noticed any social cues related to his Boni-snatching. He may not have done due diligence in exercising his rights as expected within the Tribunal. It's easier to have the other covenants turn away from the PC covenant. Allies become less interested in the PC covenant's proposals, enemy covenants start winning some political capital. If there is ostracism within the Tribunal, this also becomes a problem. At least two canonical covenants have formal ostracism procedures.

30

It's not wrong at all. Like I said, all of our answers are speculative. It's up to you to spin a good story that your players will buy into. There's a lot in what you wrote that suggests it's a naked power grab, and that you can sneak in some overlooked technicality. In his attempt to strengthen himself, he weakens his covenant and strengthens his enemies. He has problems. :smiley:

31

Personally, I wouldn't have the Tremere do anything other than monitor the apprentice and his new master, the Bonisagus. Perhaps drop a hint once in a while about the Boni's research progressing, innuendos reminding him that the privilege of taking another's apprentice is to benefit the Order. Tremere, after all, are all about strenghtening the Order, aren't they? Push and prod. He may not like it, so the tone would be sarcastic and annoying, but it is after all tradition. What have you produced lately? Is your research progressing? Is your new apprentice helping you in a satisfactory manner?

Meanwhile, he would keep in touch with the apprentice also. He is, after all and after a fashion, his adopted son, even if he was stolen away. Encourage him to study well, for it is a great honor to be the apprentice of a Bonisagus. But at the same time get him to feel that he will always have a place with the Tremere. Then, once he is Gauntleted, encourage him to come back and do research for House Tremere (at his covenant). Perhaps even renounce House Bonisagus and join House Tremere. Or not, so as to protect future apprentices of his covenant.

House Tremere wins, the Order wins, the Tremere magus wins. The Bonisagus magus loses face and standing.

A long-term plan, but House Tremere understands thinks in terms of generations.

Edit: Fixed a typo.

32

I would wizard's war his ass as soon as the code allows, if my covenant was more powerful at war than his. The alternative solutions are more like a way to teach the player a lesson without killing his character :p.

33

Thank you, Arthur. I´m impressed. This fits perfectly in my saga. I´ll do it this way. (And pyrale: Why killing him, if he can be useful?)

Chiarina.

34

So, you're an evil SG. Well, more evil than most. Please note that the code neither allows or disallows WW in this case. WW doesn't need a reason. Will everyone in the Tribunal know why the Tremere declared WW? Of course! Will there be repercussions for the Tremere? Yes, he's as big, if not bigger bully than the Bonisagus. No one wins. House Tremere loses face. Doissetep loses credibility. Both covenants are diminished leaving room for a third power to emerge...

35

Someone that comes to my home and steals 9 years of my work without even asking politely would be very useful as a paperweight in my library. I mean, his skull would :smiling_imp:. But I guess I'm not patient enough to play a Tremere, Arthur's answer is perfect.

36

Another consideration. Is that the Bonisagus has pissed off a large part of House Tremere.

I've always thought of 5th edition Tremere as to be very much like the Minbari from Babylon 5 ("When we move, we move together") or maybe the Mobile Infrantry from Starship Troppers (the book, not the movie, "Everybody fights, no one quits"). The Tremere magus had an apprentice for a reason. It was ostensibly ordered or approved from his higher ups in the House, or is part of his goal to move up within the House. Experienced magi of the House are expected to train an apprentice. Experienced magi have regained their voting sigil from their parens, or could do so when it is convenient to them to do so.

Also something weird could happen here. The apprentice may already have his House's Virtue, if he worked 10 seasons with the Tremere magus, according to the guidelines of Apprentices. This very fact could make imparting the Puissant Magic Theory effectively impossible for the Bonisagus master.

37

Well, I guess you could say I'm evil. To my credit, I usually try to make sure that my players know the consequences for what they do, and they are very cautious.

I don't really see why Doisstep or the Tremere magus would lose face within the tribunal either. By going to another covenant without warning and ruthlessly claiming an apprentice about whom he probably knew nothing, the Bonisagus magus respected the letter of the code, but he blantly violated its spirit. As it happens, wizard's wars are also legal by the code, and the Bonisagus was stupid enough to provoke his sodale without preparing for the consequences. Why should the Tremere be blamed in the tribunal for reacting to provocations from the Bonisagus ?

It's just like in real life, if you weight 100 lbs and punch someone that weights 200 lbs, people won't expect the guy to be gentle.

38

Plans must adapt to reality. House Tremere knows that.

In this case, they are losing a half-trained apprentice. They may end up gaining a fully-trained magus.

And the Tremere magus is now available to start training another apprentice.

He probably won't have gained the virtue yet, since the first years are mostly spend learning Latin. But even if he did, it is simply no longer a free virtue. He ends up with both virtues -- it's not like they are incompatible, after all.

39

True, but it is either taught or acquired over seasons spent working with the parens. Apprentices suggests 10 seasons of one-on-one interaction with parens. Interaction is undefined, but I'd argue working as a lab assistant qualifies, so 9 years of apprenticeship, you're pretty much assured that you're at the 10 seasons, even at only 1 season per year of teaching, you're at 9. So with just 1 season of labwork out of the remaining 27 seasons, what are the chances he doesn't have the House virtue at this point?

Given that, there is a case to be made that it should require some effort on the part of the Boni-snatcher to impart Puissant Magic Theory, and not just transfer the bonus after 10 seasons as is suggested in Apprentices. Maybe even making it as difficult to impart, like a Hermetic virtue, even though this isn't strictly speaking a Hermetic item/virtue. It's the problem with taking an older apprentice past a certain point in the apprenticeship, who has learned much. And it could be that the Tremere was a better teacher overall...

40

A WW by the Tremere could be viewed in just the same light. Two wrongs do not make a right, isn't this almost how the Schism started? Tremere declaring a WW against a Diedne, and then it escalated? Tremere should understand the role of WW better than most. Since the Sundering, they have reformed themselves as servants of the Order generally. A Tremere, again taken from Against the Dark, would declare a Wizard's War only as a last resort. In this case, we're far from a last resort situation. People would expect the Tremere to be gentle, because he has the entirety of his House watching him, and they would be displeased with his response. But, similarly, they would be displeased with the Bonisagus, and his covenant, and any other Tremere magi that might have been in their camp would probably change positions. Doissetep could also receive additional Tremere support.

Arthur's response is the best of what's been offered, so far.