Right now the diednes are FAR from the "oh so obvious antagonist" precisely because they are so foggy that you have nothing to really base them on. ANy tradition in the books, hermetics, mundanes, natural phenomena, .... all are better based in the setting as antagonists than the diednes. Fortunatelly Davnalleus is still around and kicking even if he is not a gruagachan anymore. Now THAT is an antagonist. One that did not get enough spotlight in 5th edition either, but hey.
The diednes are just in the area of "beaten losers that are not worth counting as antagonists anymore" camp. I feel like Sahirs should occupy that place now, but the current sahir rules and description did not cut it for me.
Can't remember if I already said it (probably) but I would really love to be able to play Flambeau. Or a member of his tradition. A guy that is AWESOME at CrIg but sucks at everythign else. Same foer the other founders. A "founders galore" book. Or a book abpout traditions that can do one thing and that is their power. No flexible magic, but really focused and limited magfic. But there, they beat hands down almost every hermetic magus that claims to be a master of the field. There are the stories around, just not the rules to play them
The question is, would the Founders still be dominant in their specialties compared to modern Hermetic specialists? Back in the beginning, there weren't necessarily a lot of safe, high-quality sources to study from, but now there are. Burnius of Flambeau got to 10 each in Cr and Ig even before he finished apprenticeship, and several decades later he's running around at 35+ in both of 'em. Whatever Flambeau could do he can probably spont, and he probably has all of Flambeau's signature spells mastered to L4+.
All of the Founders had non-Hermetic magic, too, which didn't suddenly go away when they learned Hermetic magic. They also had their remaining years to develop their magics throughout the development of the Order. I can't imagine that Flambeau simply said, "Oh, hey, starting over. Man, this will be hard." The guy taught himself magic in a cave by himself. He had 52 years after the founding of the Order, and we know that his second apprentice had decent scores, writing Ars Flambonis with a Level of 14 and a quality of 12, chances are she had a score of nearly 30. I seriously doubt Flambeau allowed his apprentice to eclipse him while he lived. I have the feeling that with 50ish years of effort, he probably hit 40 in Cr/Re/MuIg.
We know that Bonisagus carried out two Hermetic breakthroughs (Parma and Magic Theory). He also carried out a number of minor breakthroughs by integrating the magics of the other Founders (although, to be fair, he was assisted in those by Trianoma and the other Founders.)
We know the power level of current magic, and the amount of time that's elapsed since the time of Bonisagus, Flambeau et al.
The speed of Bonisagus's research vastly outstrips the original research rules in the book which bears his likeness. Conversely, the pace of research in the ~450 years since then appears to have been more leisurely than what would be suggested by 50-odd of the most brilliant researchers in Europe, feverishly applying those same rules.
Therefore, given these three points, either Bonisagus was a demigod and original research actually is that slow (which contradicts system), or there's no way that the Founders could have accomplished everything ascribed to them (which contradicts setting). Faced with this dilemma, we really have two options:
a) The entire founding myth of the Order is just that, a myth. Tytalus and Tremere were never brothers, Bonisagus probably never existed, or if he did he was a figure like Pythagoras to whom discoveries were ascribed. The houses came into being gradually, and there may have been many more than the known ones.
b) (Belisario's Maxim) Don't examine this too closely.
Either of these is a fair answer. However, a) contradicts a lot of stuff and, while it makes the prehistory of the Order vastly more interesting, it also damages a lot of the myth quality which I personally like about the setting. b), on the other hand, doesn't sell books, but is my preferred take on the matter.
I would go for 2rules do not fit", but that is me. Still, if there are only 3 major breakthroughs (Parma, spont magic and whatever birna did bring) and the rest are hermetic traditions more or less related to Bonnie's tradition AND (and here is a huge conditional) require a minor breakthrough, maybe it could be achieved if Bonnie heavily specialized in breakthrough point acquisition. Since I did not like the breakthrough rules when I read them I have no idea if you can max out in their acquisition, but given the massive multipliers in ArM5 it is likely that it can be done. 1 minor breakthrough per year to integrate a tradition + 3-4 years for the big ones. A lifetime to manage a whole creation of the system, but you can do it.
remember that the star spell of Flambeau was something akin to POF, and he had a very low penetration with it, less than 25 or so for sure. Nobody had magic resistance, at the time (well, supernatural beings did, true) so he did not need it. The story goes that Trianoma withstood it and so Flambeau agreed to join to gain the Parma magica. If he could roast trianoma, well, we would be 2 founders (or quasifounders) short
Donald P. Bellisario (I spelled his name incorrectly above; my apologies if you're reading this, Donald) was a TV producer. At a convention one year he was quizzed extensively by a fan about the mechanics behind Quantum Leap. His reply, after at first attempting to handwave, was that line, which has since become legendary.
Option a) is something I do extensively within other fantasy games, especially L5R. Of course your world's history is a lie. Look at it. Look at it. It makes no sense. None. How did you get to the present day? You have no idea. All you know is what the present day looks like, and you might plausibly extrapolate a few things backwards in time, but there's no way that you can know for sure whether a given story is true.
It fits into the medieval paradigm nicely. Yes, you can be reasonably certain that King Alfred the Great did not actually invent the lantern, or burn any cakes. You can also make a good argument that the stories told about Virgil, or Julius Caesar, or Alexander, or Christ, or anyone else, did not actually match the historical person. However, what's actually true? Nobody knows. Nobody has bothered to remember, because we prefer the stories.
It's not a secret conspiracy. It's simply the cumulative effect of years upon years of humans who prefer myths of great philosopher kings, to the reality of many silent hands and forgotten minds working gradually over the years. Nobody organised it; it's an artifact of how human minds work.
(As an aside, something I like to emphasise in L5R is that the events of the campaign did not happen. What the characters do on stage is the story that's being recorded hundreds of years later, when people have turned the characters into archetypes, added anachronisms to the setting, turned the story into a morality play, and garnished it liberally with fanservice of various types. The actual historical figures probably never acted or spoke like that; certain characters may be a melange of three or four different real characters, and the real events probably occurred over a far longer period and involved far more gradual changes, rather than the pivotal climax scenes that the story contains. Mind you, that's largely because my players like that style of play, because it allows outrageous handwaving and plot inconsistencies in order to keep the game going. If I had a party who insisted on rigid simulationism, I probably wouldn't be able to get away with it.)
Having a really high Magic Theory and taking a lot of risk helps but that would not have been possible for Boni's first breakthrough.
Some argument can be made for having the Lucky virtue help with any experimentation. Even if it Lucky can help it's controlled by GM discretion.
I may be forgetting something.
Covenant creation rules can be used/abused to make research and experimentation way easier and more productive.
A luck aligned aura will help as much as luck can. And would stack with the virtue.
Or you could just have an experimentation aligned order.
For true cheese there is always Immunity "magical mishaps"
or Unnatural Law "Experimentation always produces Breakthrough results".
Perhaps Bonisagus invented a system that was reasonably intuitive . . . to him.
One idea I've encountered in Ars Magica is the notion that other magi are half-crippling themselves by adopting someone else's system of magic, that if they learned 'naturally' or something they'd be capable of a lot more. I like the idea that this is sorta true.
It's just that Bonisagus's system happened to be so broadly applicable that he could fit a lot of different magical ideas and effects into it at a fairly low level. He was a whiz at integrating new magic into his system, so he could meet with the other Founders and assimilate their magic.
(As a side note, in my headcanon, Verdi secrets are more vulnerable to being integrated into Hermetic magic, because that Founder stopped sharing stuff with Bonisagus long before they'd reached the limit of what he could teach him.)
In the legends of hermes book there is one of the characters that basically self-initiates a whole magic system. it is still hermetic, but it is not a big leap to make it a standalone system. In another of the adventures it mentions that the 4 realms were 4 Arts at the start of the order, not a single Vim art, so SOME integration and innovation has existed since Bonnie was around. He was the breakthrough one, though, like others have been in other disciplines.
More on-topic, I'd like to see reprints of some of the 5th edition books which came out before I got the chance to buy them. I understand that ROP:D isn't available, but ROP:I and ROP:F, and the Houses books? I don't particularly want to buy them off eBay (cost to Laertes: high; profit to Atlas: none) when I can buy them from my FLGS (cost to Laertes: less high; profit to Atlas: some).
I'd love to see a 5th edition Wizard's Grimoire with things such as:
A section about interactions with various folk, like in the previous version. Include story ideas.
A section on the general statuses of magi, such as Archmage. While the specifics may vary between tribunals, certain titles are still fairly universal and could be summarized neatly with statements about some of the variations between tribunals. Include story ideas.
A section on familiars:
[list]
[*] Expand the RoP:M list of general compatibilities with Arts.
Several pages of new mundane animals (to add to what we have scattered elsewhere).
More examples of commonplace or clever/rare/difficult effects in the bond.
Experimentation and story ideas.
[/:m][] A section on talismans:
Expand the ArM5 (and scattered elsewhere) list of Shape & Material bonuses.
Examples of commonplace or clever/rare/difficult effects in the talisman.
Experimentation ideas.
[/:m][] A section on spells:
Some more Spell Mastery options in addition to collecting some of those placed in various places through the books. There are a couple options available to Mercurians that could probably be opened up, such as Adaptive Casting. And the options for rituals are currently severely limited if you're not a Mercurian. There have been some good examples in a few places.
Expand upon or clarify a few guidelines, such as the DEO level/magnitude problem.
More TeFo example spells, expanding on those in ArM5. These could be common, bizarre, focused, impressive, etc.
[/*:m][/list:u]
While rather "crunchy," this would not tend to add much in the way of rules, so bloat in that sense is minimal. I would hope, rather, that for many it would reduce "crunch" by providing more examples. In some cases it could be used to collect things that have shown up in scattered spots, such as Shape & Material bonuses. The big thing for me would be a general expansion on what would be considered typical and acceptable. For example, whether due to being beginners searching for spells or storyguides not wanting to deal with too much rules stuff in character creation, lots of magi end up with most of their spells from the same small subset of the ArM5 spells when they start off. Considering the efficiency of masters teaching spells and that there seems to be much more diversity of invented spells after apprenticeship, I would expect apprentices to learn more diverse spells. But overall the idea is the same for me: creativity can be (need not be, but can be) limited by what we have seen, so seeing a little more can provide for a lot more.
If I had to chose only one ROP book I would go for the Infernal one hands down. Best book in the line (in 5th edition) so far IMO. Great for antagonists, and the mechanics can be used for almost any supernatural user with really small tweaks. IMS the cunning folk were using ROP:I rules way before ROP:F came out, for example. Much simpler and streamlined rules that are easy to adapt and are well balanced AND cool. And of course, lots of enemies to tinker with. And power struggles in morality for your magi and companions.
Publishers/writers wish to remain coy about the didnae yet fans clamor for ideas? I think I have a solutions:
We've had Hedge, Rival, and even Ancient Magic. None of these books is integral to the canon the way the HoH and tribunal books are. They present ideas that the GM can develop out into stories and sagas. How about a book of "Dead Magic?" The book would present 3-5 possible traditions that might have once existed inside the order. Some remnants of them could live on in mystery cults or other houses, and some of their hermetic secrets might lie scattered about in various sites, which could all be detailed, providing the adventure seeds that some are looking for. Depending on the number of pssibilities and level of detail, this could be anything from a 64 pager like Apprentices to a 128 page hardbound like the "X Magic" books.
Any one of these possible dead traditions could be the didnae, or all of them could be part of didnae, or none of them could be, keeping the didnae as vague as ever, depending on SG and troupe preference. Even if a gm decided not to use any of them as the didnae, as long as the timeline of these traditions falls isn't too detailed, any of them could be shifted to coincide with other canon or saga groups/events besides the schism war.
