I believe that if we want a system which allows to play during the 10th century or the 15th century, in Europe, Middle East or China, the system should be purely mechanical and leave the background element out, to be defined in the chapter or extension covering in details such settings.
I also believe that each setting should not try to be compatible with all the other settings because fundamental contradiction will arise. Example: the current setting is clearly christiano-(even catholic) centric with the presence of one God All Mighty. I have no issue with the setting and I accept it as an axiome of the background. Consequently, all the other religions are either heretic/misguided and whatever powers their believers or priests have is coming from a lower source of power and should be describe as such.
However, if there is a setting based on Viking culture, lore and belief, it is clear that there is a whole pantheon of Gods with all their attributes. Due to my ignorance of this culture I do not know if the equivalent of miracles were happening and how much gods were involving in mortal affairs, but whatever the case, it will be a true axiome of this setting. Thus incompatible with the original background.
Trying to use greater Faes to take on the role of other Gods is okay if you follow the official setting, but limiting and also belittling if you want to tell a true viking story.
So let this setting be a standalone and not try to make everything compatible with the original background.
By allowing several backgrounds to exist in the game range without trying to make them all part of the a unique Universe, we remove a lot of headache and probably can expand the player's base as well.
You can dwell in mythical Egypt, mysterious China or legendary Machu Pichu without the burden of "how would God allow all that ?" or "Anyway, they are all corrupted by skilled demons pretending that they are doing their Gods' work" contrived excuses and background.
Tools to let SGs build adventures. This includes monster-creation advice - a rudimentary system much like that in the current rules is fine, you don't need a mechanical subsystem, but you DO need a bit more advice I think. It also means advice on building an Ars Magica encounter, storyline, and saga; the core book has some on the latter, but not the former.
Tools to let PCs build familiars, hearbeasts, etc - mundane animals.
What to cut? Now, that's the difficult question. Perhaps,
The introductory story.
Abridged combat rules. Make it even more abstract and skill vs. skill, as noted above.
/physicist hat on
Ah? I don't know what you're referring to - but, no. Our modern understanding of how light works can be dated at most to the rise of quantum mechanics, in the mid 20th century; light is made up of photons, it is a quantum phenomena. At best, our understanding of some aspects of light can be traced back to James Clark Maxwell at the end of the 19th; light as an electromagnetic wave. You can stretch it to Hyugens in the 17th century (light as waves in the....?), but that would be stretching the word "understanding" quite a bit.
/physicist hat off
ArM is significantly defined by embracing Mythic Europe: both its rules - not just their 'flavor' - and the central concept of the Order of Hermes show this. It is not a generic fantasy RPG with setting books attached. Trying to make it compete with generic fantasy RPGs like D&D, Pathfinder and such is an obviously losing proposition we should not discuss over and over.
You clearly misrepresent ArM5 here, but this thread is not the place to sort it out. For that purpose I refer you to David Chart's From the Line Editor in subrosa #16.
It is indeed better to research a background first before making statements about incompatibility - as repeatedly shown on this forum.
In 1220, the Norse gods are no longer worshipped in historic Scandinavia - and in Mythic Europe. So making them Fae is a logical way to keep them in the game.
Subrosa #16's 865 setting, however, needs to allow for widespread and working pagan religion - with its deities, sacred sites, priests, sacrifices, worshippers and divine favors. It does so within the concepts of Mythic Europe and the ArM5 Realm books, hints how to integrate pagan and Hermetic practice, and tries for more historical accuracy than standard Viking fantasy stuff. Perhaps you wish to take a look.
Especially Mark Shirley's 1470 AD: After the Plague in subrosa #16 shows the potential of such an approach within Mythic Europe, and recommends it as the practice for further ArM settings in the future.
Core magical system (Technique and Form mechanism, Range/Target Size/Duration, spontaneous vs formulaic magic)
Streamlined guide lines to design spells with enough examples
Generic enchantment system
Skill systems to resolve action (preferably less swingy that the current d10 - personal view, the dice has too much weight compared to skills & caracteristic)
Generic combat system, with limited dice roll. Ideally, two options, the attacker rolls against a set value (depending on the defender), depending on the margin inflict a certain damage. Alternatively both side roll with various bonus, the higher win and inflict damage according to the margin of success and the weapon/spell used
Generic Realm rules (some background might not have room for Faerie, or Infernal, but might a Realm per Divinity)
Guideline for supernatural NPC (creature or not)
Menagerie of non-supernatural threat (to establish a baseline)
Evolution chapter, including Arts, skills and virtues/flaws (without the fluff surrounding Mystery cults), age and twilight
Covenant creation, generic mechanism, with a good level of abstraction - no need for accounting books
What can be part of Setting books:
Obviously background information (politic, history, belief, religion...)
Houses / traditions / clans
Forms and Techniques relevant to the setting with specific range/duration/target if relevant, spells example and new guidelines for new forms
Specific magic lab activities
Limits of magic relevant to the setting - introduction of ritual magic if relevant
Thanks One Shot, but I do not have access to SubRosa. If key information to understand and play ArM is in SubRosa, then it means it is clearly missing from the corebook.
So condescending...
Did I say I wanted to play Viking in the 12th century ? No. I say I could be interested in playing a variant of Ars set in Mythic Scandinavia with all the lore. Whether it can only happen in the 5th or 9th century, a Setting book will let me discover it.
The initial question is what we would like in ArM6. My request is to have a system which will allow me to play in several setting, yet keeping what I find great in Ars magica like the concept of covenant, decades play campaign, strong magic mechanism.
I don't need ArM6 to play in Mythic Europe, I have ArM5 and quite happy with it. Sure, some fixes would be great, but between and improved 5 and a new 6, I made my choice.
You did not talk of a Mythic Scandinavia, but of a setting based on Viking culture, lore and belief. And just claimed that playing Vikings true to their culture, lore and belief in Ars is incompatible with the original background.
This is not the case. Subrosa #16 provides an example with lots of Vikings in the 9th century successfully practicing their culture, lore and belief in Mythic Europe: indeed a tiny Setting book of some 30 pages - though not all about Vikings.
Perhaps you indeed wish to take a look at subrosa #16, if you are interested in settings besides 1220. It does not provide key information to understand and play ArM, but contains three settings based on Mythic Europe, the Order of Hermes and Hermetic magic in other times: 865, 1050 and 1470. Plus one setting in 550 Britain, before the founding of the Order and the invention of Hermetic magic.
I think our starting point has to be to ask ourselves why Ars Magica has not grown in popularity over the past decade, given that those who do play it think it is excellent and that the fifth edition of the rules is the best version so far.
I think there is an easy answer to this – at present the game is extremely inaccessible to newcomers. While the fifth edition overall offers a very good, elegant version of the rules compared to previous editions, the core rulebook is worse at introducing people to the game. It is not good at showing new players how to run their first session or at conveying the flavour of the game. This has not been helped by the absence of entry-level scenarios or supplements – there has been no equivalent of ‘The Stormrider’ or ‘Promises, Promises’ for fifth edition, nor a pick-up-and-play setting like Mistridge. Instead we have a formidable rulebook and a daunting range of supplements, most of which are toolkits full of ideas and new rules rather than material which can be used easily to build a new saga from scratch.
I am sure people in this forum must be aware that there has been criticism of fifth edition from people who used to play the game. Some of that is surely inevitable – as a game moves on people who liked things as they were will drop away. But there is one criticism that has really stayed with me. It is that those developing Ars Magica have been listening exclusively to its current fans rather than thinking about how to draw new people in. So we have supplement after supplement adding to the ruleset in one way or another, which can be highly valuable for those who have been playing the game for years, but which make the game seem even more formidable and unapproachable to those on the outside.
If there is to be a new edition of Ars Magica, I would make accessibility to newcomers the number one priority. Given the density of the current edition, I think that has to mean either stripping back the rules or else publishing the core rules over a number of different books. If Atlas takes the latter option, I think it would be excellent if it could also publish a very reasonably-priced starter book alongside the core rulebooks, which could be Ars Magica lite with a sample scenario, or a longer standalone scenario with a highly honed-down version of the rules.
The main rulebook should be oriented towards people coming to the game for the first time. I liked the story that began fourth edition – the very short text that began fifth edition was not an adequate replacement. More examples of gameplay would be good, which as well as explaining the rules should convey how game sessions can flow, and the feel of an Ars Magica game. A sample saga location, covenant, and starting scenario would all be very helpful – many storyguides will end up doing something different, but these would all give a better idea of how a game could be run. As others have said, a bestiary of creatures that could be easily slotted into a saga would be very helpful, as could a range of template stats for NPCs – although this could be published in the form of a supplement. Just being told how to build a creature or NPC from scratch can be frustrating given how much else one has to do to run an Ars Magica game, and how much time character and creature creation can take.
Personally, I think publishing a significantly different set of rules would be a mistake. Given that most storyguides will have spent a lot of money on fifth edition supplements, and will have invested time reading them and familiarising themselves with the concepts, many won’t fancy the jump to a new edition. I would prefer Ars Magica 5.5, which would replace the existing core book roughly along the lines I suggest, but would be fully compatible with the published supplements for fifth edition.
I agree totally with this. We have a lot of excellent material out already most of which hasn't been used to it's fullest extent. If anyone were to do something in the next couple of years, then a 5.5 intro book that provided a gateway to new players is the way forward. I believe that this game is excellent, and should be experienced by more people; so we have to make it more accessible. This doesn't necessarily mean going back to basics, but providing an easier glide path along the learning curve.
It is my opinion that 3.5 and pathfinder did so well, because essentially there had been years of in-the-wild playtesting to smooth over the rough bits. If we go back to the beginning we run the risk of generating too many new rough edges that we cannot yet forsee. This would run the risk of alienating those people who only have the vaguest idea of Ars Magica at the moment.
The best way for Atlas to make the most of the brand is to capitalize on all the work that has been done in 5th ed, and give more people the ability to enjoy what is already out there.
Interesting cover art. Throwing up the seal of the Order of Hermes on the front cover gives newcomers no idea of what's inside. This is somewhat fixed in subsequent books as the seal is replaced by scenes of things, but the interesting art is still like 25% of cover real estate when it should be 75%.
The art and layout of the game are in desperate need of improvement. Move the game out of the monochrome era so it looks less like a collection of textbooks.
We deliberately recruited ArM novices into the playtest for ArM5 to try to address this problem.
As you may have noticed, people do not generally believe that it was successful.
Thank you, but I wrote the ArM5 text to respond to criticism that the ArM4 text was far too long-winded.
That's going to be a very big core book, or missing a lot of the rules that other people are saying are essential.
We do have most of those things now, in Mythic Locations, Through the Aegis, and the various Tales books, but they take space. If you look at recent ArM5 books, a lot of them are there to make it easier to run the game. Magi of Hermes is pre-generated magus stats at multiple ages. The Tales books and Hooks are ready-to-run scenarios. Ancient Magic, Legends of Hermes, Hermetic Projects, and Transforming Mythic Europe are saga frames. Antagonists and Mythic Locations are elements to drop into your saga. I don't think we could have done them at the beginning of the line, because I don't think we were sufficiently familiar with the game to make it work.
On the other hand, it means that the raw materials for an introductory set do now exist, and an introductory set paired with a re-presentation of the core rules (5.5) might be a good way to go. But I don't think you can fit everything into a single set without making it so big that it deters people by its sheer mass.
Thank you for responding to my post. Firstly I should say that I greatly admire what you have done with the game over the past 10-15 years. I admit I am somewhat in awe of what has been achieved, and I am very thankful for the many excellent books that have been published.
I do take your point that the raw materials for an introductory set do now exist, but they are scattered and not obvious for a newbie to find. I also see the danger of ending up with an excessively long core rulebook if everything we might want to include is included in a single book.
Perhaps multiple books is the best way to go. There could certainly be a single book which allowed people to play their first few sessions - which cut out things which are of more long term concern, such as covenant design, the laboratory rules, long term events and maybe even the realms. Or there could still be a single self-contained main rulebook as a reference work, but then an introductory starter book which has more hand-holding and sample material like a sample covenant and sample PCs, NPCs and supernatural creatures - with some unavoidable duplication between the two.
Personally, I don't see duplication as necessarily a bad thing - perhaps some repetition and reinforcement would be better than expanding the game even further! To add yet another example, I would love it if there was a small handbook of spontaneous magic, with a two page spread for every form+technique combination, building on the guidelines in the main rulebook, and using where possible ranges and durations and targets that would be useful for actual spell casting (not always the case with the default personal, momentary, individual) and biased towards the lower and mid level spells which are more likely to be achievable by a PC mage using spontaneous magic. Such a book would draw on and duplicate information elsewhere, but I am sure many people would find it very useful being able to work out the level of a spontaneous spell without fumbling through the main rulebook and spending valuable game time extrapolating from the information there. The book could even be designed to look like a spell book. And unlike most supplements, it would be a book that players would want to buy as well as Storyguides.
They weren't really designed as newbie start points; that's why I say that the materials exist, rather than that we have done it. An introductory set is something that we have discussed from time to time, but we've never been able to come up with a formula that looked viable. When you start listing what needs to go in, the list gets quite long, and you need a large up-front capital investment, which has been a bit difficult to justify.
While I wouldn't be involved, I do think that "The Ars Magica Starter Set" would be a good choice for a Kickstarter; it's a way to gauge whether the level of interest will support a full-colour box set with lots of goodies. An Ars Magica starter set that looked like the Numenera box set that Monte Cook Games just did (and which I have) would be absolutely amazing. (Admittedly, they can't afford to sell that into distribution.)
Mr. Chart has come up with a very intriguing idea, as is his wont.
One of the things that has changed in the market is that things that can't afford to be sold into distribution (alone) can still be very successful, thanks to crowdfunding.
By way of example, the one month Kickstarter for Feng Shui 2 generated about 60% more revenue than the previous 15 years of sales combined of the core rulebook. And now we have an amazing 352-page color hardcover to sell into traditional distribution, with all of its development expenses already paid for.
The above represents some really good ideas. The related thread contains some horrible ideas that would drive me from the game.
But with that aside...
I still advocate a "Fifth Edition Revised". Something which would harmonize the rules and make things more accessible, yet remain compatible with 5th edition material.Though with some application of effort, pretty much all material from various editions is compatible, and don't try to convince me otherwise because I have done it successfully for years.
Anyway, I really think that a new core book could contain so much more that it currently does. Sorry to say, but there is a lot of repetition and useless text. The rules for Parma are in there twice, word-for-word the same four paragraphs in two different spots. Saga & Stories can be condensed into one chapter. As for creatures, somewhere on the forums I wrote a one paragraph rule that handles all sorts of beasties. One paragraph that replaces the need for a whole book. It was as a suggestion to a new player who lacked material other than the core rules. So I know this can be done. Another major issue is rules creep and poor organization of the splat books. All of the major rules used regularly should be gathered in the main book. All of the rules used sometimes should also be gathered in one book. All non-hermetic magic in one book, not some here, most there, some essential bits elsewhere, and referencing that out of print book over there. Also, most every house has information that applies wide beyond their house. These should all be gathered together in one book. A Wizard's Grimoire. Indeed, I feel ArM5 suffers greatly from the lack of a Wizard's Grimoire. Stuff from WGRE is scattered in 8 different ArM5 splats and many essentials were left out. ArM5 is incomplete without that information. In ArM4, I ran for years with just the core rules and the WGRE.
And the Art
The art in the fifth edition core is terrible! Apologies to whomever actually drew it, I think that the red ink printing ruined a lot of it. The trade dress is terrible, the yellow covers are horrible, the caricatures representing the founders and four realms are awful. ArM5 is very unappealing visually, with a few minor exceptions. Things did get better as the progressed, but the core RAW is still quite ugly.
That alone is a barrier to a new player purchasing the book.
Say what you will about ArM3, but the art was way better and more compelling to read.
I actually have a very clear vision of how I would assemble a revised fifth. Call it sixth if you want. But there is no need.
I mean I am serious! If I had a season of seclusion to just crank on it, I could rewrite the book my self. I mean, I have an exactly perfectly clear idea of what to do. It may be my overconfidence speaking and it could get blurry if I get up close. But I have a solid approach, which is (I feel) a step further than most.
I think another point is being missed here -the power level of hermetic magi and the setting do not match. A sufficiently specialized wizard can do things that will transform mythic Europe. Now - this was addressed in a supplement of its own and I commend Atlas for doing that - I liked the book quite a bit. But there really was never any good explanation given for why medieval European history has stayed the same with a group of people who would have fundamentally changed it. One book, I think the Noble Book, gave five different possibilities. I'm glad that this got mentioned at all, because the Core 4E and 5E never mentioned this.
Mage the Ascension/Sorcerer's Crusade got around this by saying a few things:
1.) There are multiple supernatural communities who are always up to shenanigans, and the reason history is roughly the same as ours is that they're politicking cancelled out.
and if that didn't make sense
2.) A certain faction was behind historical events. I.e. The Order of Reason created Science as we know and morphed into the Technocracy, forcing the Traditions and independents underground.
3.) Some strong supernatural reason for a "veil" or "masquerade" that kept their society separate. Werewolves cause people to run away in terror. Both they and the Vampires fear humanities retribution. Mages and pounded with paradox if they flaunt their arts too openly.
A sufficiently high powered game reveals that as statted up in the books, most supernatural beings are not difficult for the PCs to challenge. Ultimately things come down to God's Will, which isn't very satisfying as a Story Teller.
It is (probably) the principal point in the suspension of disbelief required for Ars. I don't think it needs to be covered in any detail in a 6e book except in the introduction area which might cover the themes and setting. The "why" just opens a lot of arguments which are meta game issues. I love those arguments, but not in a 6e core book.
This is true, and I agree it's a problem. It can be solved through play style, though. Either you can agree not to specialize your magi to that degree, and pace your saga so it ends before the magi become ridiculously overpowered; or you agree that no matter how powerful the magi get, the PC magi just agree not to transform Mythic Europe because that would ruin the fun (and they optionally have some in-character explanation like they actually care that letting kings rule instead of magi is the Way Things Ought to Be); or you can have your high-powered stories in the Magic or Faerie Realm where Mythic Europe is not underfoot to get trampled; or you can decide to go ahead and transform Mythic Europe and have stories about that -- and the other high-powered magi who are competing to change it their way.
Getting magi so powerful they break the assumptions of the setting is a problem in ArM5 mainly because it's so easy to do that an inexperienced troupe can do it by accident. I think the power level of magi is a major pitfall that potentially turns people off to the game. It has always been that way to some extent, and fixing it would spoil things for groups who enjoy high power. This is a good thing to think about when designing a new edition. I suspect that powering down would annoy a lot of current fans.
If a new edition were to take a stronger stance on what power level magi should have before the saga is considered to have jumped the shark, and make rule changes to support that expectation (powering Virtues and spell guidelines and advancement rates up or down according to the desired outcome), I would be in favor of that.
I always thought "the other magi will March you if you interfere in mundane affairs" was a pretty plausible reason for preserving the status quo. YMMV. As you say, Lords of Men explores this topic a bit. Moving that discussion into the core book would be a good start.
I think the primary culprits in this are Magical Focus and the ease of access to high quality books. When 'sound' books are considered SQ9-11, magi get powerful quickly. 4th edition magical focus was an Ability, so getting +5 in your focus was pretty much it. I imagine that seemed weak, which is why it was revised for 5th, but it kind of went too far.