A Future ArM 6 -- what is ESSENTIAL?

I always assumed 2 things about this. First, the covenant as a whole is on high alert at this time. Guards are doubled and tripled. Magi are ready to break away from the casting - assuming they aren't part of the Wizard's Communion, and everybody has their defensive spells in place. Covenant allies are invited and major defensive spells are erected over the area (like wards) and the immediate region is checked for intruders. Second, the completion of the casting is timed basically to the second to insure that there is minimal gap in the Aegis. So the attackers have to charge into an active Aegis to stand a chance of interrupting the renewal of it, and the defending magi can theoretically abandon the casting (roll a stress die to see if there is a potential botch, so 10% chance of bad stuff) and defend the covenant as long as the Aegis has left.

Basically, the advantage of surprise isn't there. Covenants know it's the prime time to attack them, so everyone is ready for it. It's far, far smarter to try to collapse an Aegis (charged item!) for a surprise assault on any random day of the year, and catch all the magi napping or piecemeal.

And yes, if you have big enemies likely to try, you are better off casting the Aegis on some random date and accept you'll cast it slightly more often.

The thing is that I doubt magi can be relaxed during the casting. True, they may expect an attack or be vigilant but, they are stressed.

This is a verrry unfriendly reading of D: Year.

Given that Hermetic magi will consider equinox or solstice as precise astronomical events, they have the time interval from that event until the following sunrise to complete the recasting of their Aegis. If they complete it during that interval (typically several hours), they do so under the protection of the old Aegis still.

Cheers

The text as you ably pointed out and quoted says exactly what it says, until sunrise on the fourth equinox or solstice after its casting. Whether one chooses to believe that a solstice or equinox is a date, or a point in time on a particular day, it seems clear that the text says that the spell lasts until sunrise on the fourth equinox after its casting. It does not say until the first sunrise after the 4th equinox after its casting. Whether magi consider solstices or equinoxes precise astronomical events, it ends at sunrise the day of the equinox or solstice. If the equinox or solstice happens prior to sunrise on a particular day, then the magi get a bit more time.

Astronomical solstice or equinox is not a day, but a point in time. The sunrise on a point in time is the sunrise following it.

Cheers

Unless the Astronomical event happened at 3AM

It needs to be a year and a day ( from Fairly magic).

I know. The text doesn't state astronomical solstice, though. And even if it did, ask most people what sunrise on the solstice means, and I'm sure that they will think sunrise on the day of the solstice, not sunrise on the day following the solstice.

I'd agree that if they knew for certain or knew they were probably going to be attacked, they would be stressed. If they were under attack at the time, or their covenant was attacked after they start the ritual, again, stressed. If they think they might, maybe, possibly be attacked even though they checked the local area and found nothing, are they stressed? Probably not.

"Stressful" and "Calm" conditions are pretty nebulous, so this is a YMMV topic, but I think a threat of attack has to be pretty clear before things are considered stressful, otherwise a magus would never be able to cast under calm conditions outside an Aegis for fear of attack.

It is indeed an issue of educated reading.
(1) Measuring spell durations by solstices and equinoxes has nothing to do with medieval or modern calendars, with their beginnings, ends and even lengths of days depending on place, culture and education of the speaker.
(2) So solstices and equinoxes are astronomical events.
(3) So a sunrise on such an event is the sunrise following it.

Cheers

And you bring home the heart of the problem I have. Characters can easily go from calm/relaxed to stressed out and 15 botch dice in a moment of SG pique...

Ahh, the condescension... Can you smell what your shoveling?

  1. Never said it did.
  2. Solstices also refer to the day of the event, and have, for quite some time.
  3. Can you demonstrate that? I've never read that in any academic historical text. Can you provide such a reference?

I think the discussion of the details regarding rituals is quite tangential to the current topic. Can we stop discussing it in this topic? I think the point has been made that some feel it is an area that would benefit from some more thought or changes. I don't think re-hashing a previous discussion brings anything, so I would ask nicely to those involved in it to simply stop, or move it in a different topic.

Back to the main topic, what is essential to Ars Magica?

  • A focus on wizards, meaning a great magical system and a lack of worry about "game balance" between them and non-wizards
  • Mythic Europe, as a great and rich setting for those wizards within which the myths and legends come to life, alongside the more historically accurate society of peasants, Church and nobility
  • A balance between the thrill of telling stories (based on the individual characters) and the crunchier activities of long-term development (centered around the covenant)

Personally, I feel that all of the details in the rest of the game, be they the Houses, the way the Realms are represented, the specifics of the magical system, the mechanics of the game, are not essential. Sure, I would mourn some of those items if a new version of the game eliminated or changed them in a major way. But it would still be Ars Magica to me.

Well, the particulars of Ritual Magic aren't specifically important, I think it's important to say that Ritual Magic as conceived in the text doesn't really fit anywhere. It doesn't feel particularly Mythic or grand. Ok, you create a tower, ok you cast an Aegis. Now some of that can be described in fantastic terms, sure, but it is the culmination of a die roll. They pay off isn't really there.

Good.

That day, however, is defined by a calendar. In history days have begun at midnight, at sunrise, or at sunset. A reference "to the day of the event" is culture specific even within Mythic Europe - and not useful for Hermetic magi measuring spell duration time.

I thought you knew (see Heroes' Birthright: duration and warping):

Cheers

Agreed.

Cheers

Huh? That's not an academic reference.

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+10

We get the point. I think Rituals work just fine. Some people agree, others don't. The point has been made. Debating said point hijacks the thread.

Let us discuss something most people do agree upon. I like the combat system, but I feel it could be improved. And it isn't just about combat and violence. It includes action sequences which, even if their is no martial conflict, require pacing and can be exciting. An idea I had, which is kinda out there, is an Action Point system replacing Initiative. The guy with the highest total goes first. His action, swing a weapon/cast a spell/sing a song, takes up a certain number of points. Then the guy with the next highest total takes a turn, and if he is fast it may be the same guy again. This allows for multiple actions in a round, and a sequencing not dependent on the action about to be taken.

Shadowrun 3rd edition initiative, then (mostly). It worked. You got 1 initiative pass every 10 points of your initiative roll, and acted in order highest to lowest rolls, subtracting 10 each time you took your pass.

I'm actually not a fan of these kinds of initiative systems, because they increase the number of variables involved in a combat.

For my money, I prefer a combat system to minimise moving numbers as much as possible. I'm also really not a fan of rounds where people get multiple actions. A 1:1:1 ratio of actors to actions to turns is really easy for people to wrap their heads around.

The big problem I have with initiative systems like this (Shadowrun, Deadlands w/cards, etc) is that combats can end up chewing up absolutely huge amounts of your play session. Ars Magica combats (and dramatic action) should be exiting and suspenseful, but they shouldn't take up a major chunk of the game.

What I'd instead like to look at is a more generic resolution system that takes the elements of a good combat system and applies it to everything. A good combat system provides a bonus for the more skilled participant, but it allows for teamwork, cleverness, terrain, luck, etc. to overcome a skill difference. What I'd love to see is a more generic system that brings the same kind of dramatic tension and opportunities into a wider range of fields. Combat should be tense and exciting, but so should a courtroom drama or a stealthy burglary.

They really do, and even more time is wasted as people try to figure out the 'best' use of their action points for maximum effect. Adding that to a system with flexible on the fly magic would be difficult.