The story in question - Midsummer Night's Dream - was set in 1207. And I can also see a lot of institutional inertia for the preservation of such arrangements, particularly from older magi who benefit from the system.
This is right, but there needs to be a little more choice as to tactics than in the current rules. If you don't really have a choice that sways the outcome, then you really are just rolling dice. And if that's all you're doing, then make it a best of three affair and be done with it.
But it isn't a duel of honour. It's anything but. I mean, it can be, depending on how honourable the participants are, but why should the mechanics be constrained in such a way that players and storyguides alike are forced to play honourably?
And if my Vis-rich Verditius wants to stand any chance against the naturally gifted Tremere, why shouldn't I try to make up the shortfall using the fruits of my own labour?
But that shouldn't make up part of the game mechanic. In some situations, the victor and/or aggressor could pick up a bad reputation. But there's no absolute need to.
There are some elements there that are definitely in the "your saga may vary" category. For instance, I don't want my magically-weak but politically strong Tytalus to be prevented from ascending to the head of anything just because he can't win a Certamen to save his life.
But I do think you're right in that Certamen should feel a little more aggressive than it currently does. If I call you out, I'm looking to lay down a beating on you. I don't want to kill you, but you'll know not to get in my face again.
The way that Certamen works in my fantasy world is almost like the scene in the Dark Crystal. Trial by Stone! But with magic. And less banishing. But the point is that a Certamen, like Trail by Stone, is not an everyday event. It is a rarity, even amongst those who wield power, and it can have severe ramifications.
No. It doesn't. It so doesn't. If you're playing a Tremere, you have a significant stick to fend off political enemies with and perhaps try to push your case through strength of arms. But it's a double edged sword. If you have a big stick, someone else will try to take it off you; to try to maneouvre you such that try to use Certamen is not in your favour.
If you're playing anything other than Tremere, the likelihood of having to contest Certamen against one is anything from rare to unfeasibly unkind, depending on who your storyguide is. But as such a player you need to approach the Tremere in a different way. You need, as above, to take his big stick away.
Agreed. That's a good idea. Anyone up for a Sub Rosa scenario? I'm happy to work with someone if they have an idea. I might even do something myself.
I disagree strongly with the first paragraph but agree whole-heartedly with the second. I don't think Certamen should be trivial. It should be an aggressive and draining experience and not something to decide who puts the cat out.
But I don't think it does dominate. At least, in nothing I've run or played in. We have used it a few times in open play, and my Verditius actually "went equipped" when it looked like he needed to take out his main rival for the chair of covenant princeps. In the end, it wasn't needed, but it was fun working out the permutations and collecting enough Vis to make sure of victory.
Again, much to agree with and much to disagree with. One of the points of Certamen is that the loser cedes to the victor the spoils that the contest is fought over, be they political or physical. Some covenants or tribunals may even take the tournament model to heart. That's down to the tribunal, covenant, and troupe.
But really, I'd look for the rules to support Certamen as an exciting, dangerous, aggressive set piece, not to be called on every time somebody objects to the order of service or because tiramisu is off the menu.
Certamen should be front and centre. Not as an every day part of a magus' life, but as a brooding threat. And the rules should accommodate some way of me min-maxing. If that's what I want to do, I want to be able to do it. Part of the problem with the current rules is that they don't allow that.
I may be unique in this. But I have not ever had any problem with Certamen as it is. It works the way it is supposed to in my games. I had a scene recently where the older magus with the higher Arts lost to a PC with better skills (he had a higher Parma). Not knowing the opponents Arts made it exciting and demanded careful strategy in selection. Me, playing as if the NPC did not know the PC's Arts, acted on the information he had and made what he thought was a wise choice. In actuallity, it put them close to even, and the PC had the advantage of the higher Parma score (Puissant Parma Magica is an awesome choice for a Hermetic Virtue).
That's it, a higher Parma Magica? Sounds like it was luck of the dice, which can certainly happen. How much higher was his Parma actually? How much higher were the older magus's Arts? It takes 2 extra ranks of Parma Magica to balance balance each extra rank in a pair of Arts. Generally speaking, Parma Magica isn't a very significant factor. It will help tilt the odds, but nowhere near as quickly as Arts can.
Chris
The younger magus also won initiative which is a huge advantage. You get chances to weaken your foe before they get to weaken you so you get an attack through, the resulting fatigue could totally offset several points of arts (1, 3, or 5).
One thing to Certamen should be the setting of time and place to allow for getting champions to help defend you. It is always immediate, that is a huge limitation. Obviously delays can't be long but a day or two to get a champion or perhaps to set up your special circumstances or avoid your restriction would work.
That helps, and is important. But again, only with lucky rolls since the older magus still has things in his favor from Arts. In such a situation you'd have to be very lucky to knock off more 1 fatigue, lucky to just get the 1. His superior Parma Magic doesn't help on the attack. How much better was the senior magus with his Arts? I would really like to see the scores to see how much of it was raw luck. Was the older magus really that much better in his Arts, or were they really about on par (within a point or two)?
Chris
Thing is, an older magus has some higher Arts, bbut not all of them are higher. It was a Perdo Ignem contest. Erat Caecus chose Perdo as it is his specialty, not knowing Inigo was also a master of Perdo. Inigo chose Ignem. Erat had low Ignem, but his other Arts were lower, and Inigo was not about to agree to an Imaginem contest with a famed illusionist.
Also, in Certamen, Arts are not paired. One is used for Attack, the other for defense. Parma only needs to worry about the Attack, and only if it beats your defense. It does not need to worry about both Arts at once.
Oh, Inigo also had a higher Quickness score, Finesse was about equal, but that is how he won Initiative and gained the initial edge.
It is in a PbP game here on the Atlas Forums. You can read the entire breakdown here...
Let's look at this in depth:
Inigo Elazar Xalbador of Flambeau
Initiative +5 (Qik +1, Finesse (precision) 4)
Attack +13/+18 (Pre +1, Pe12/Ig17)
Defense +13/+18 (Per +1, Pe12/Ig17)
Weakening +5 (Int: +2, Penetration 3(Creo))
Resistance +9 (Sta +2, Parma Magica 4+2 (Ignem))
Erat Caecus of Tytalus
Initiative +3 (Quik +0, Finesse 3 (Mentem))
Attack +20/+8 (Pre +2, Pe18/Ig6)
Defense +17/+5 (Per -1, Pe18/Ig6)
Weakening +7 (Int +3, Penetration 3 (Perdo))
Resistance +6 (Sta +2, Parma Magica 4 (Mentem))
IF you look at the numbers: Inigo (the younger) had a large advantage actually.
Let's start with the ERat's strong attack vs Inigo doing strongest defense, you get the follow:
+20 attack vs +18 defense assuming dice roll are on par, you have weaking of 9 (2 difference +7 weakening) vs +9 defense or no fatgue in general (obviously good or bad dice can offset this)
THen you get +13 vs +8 and advantage of +5 + weakening of 5 = 10 vs defense of 6 for 1 fatigue. So on average, 1 fatigue.
Erat (the older one) loses a fatigue a round and sees is edge slowly vanish and he fatigue hits inccreasing to two per round after third round when he his -3 penalty. With the finesse edge, Erat is -1 when he attacks in 2nd round, -3 when he attacks in third round, and outcold without attack in the 4th. DIce can shift this but this is general trend.
Now, let's instead put Erat attacking with +20 vs Inigo's 13 and Inigo attacking +18 vs +8:
+18 vs +8 and advantage of 10 + weakening of 5 = 15 vs defense of 6 for 1 fatigue. So on average, 2 fatigue.
+20 attack vs +13 defense = +7 attack advantage +7 weakening is 14 weakening vs +9 defense = 5pts. 1 fatigue level.
As Inigo went first (and will more often than not:
Round 1, Erat takes 2 fatigue getting -1 to total and fatigues Inigo for 1 (no penalty)
Round 2: Erat takes 2 fatigue to -5 penalty, he fatigues inigo for 0 thanks to -5.
Round 3: Erat is out.
Both these cases Erat loses in 3-4 rounds. THese have Erat using +20 as attack and +8 as defense. IF you put the +20 on defense and +8 on attack: results are a little different
+18 vs +20: attck doesn't break defense, if by chance it does, fatigue done is advantage -1 or probably 1 level
+8 vs +13: Attack doesn't break defense and if by luck it did. Damage is attack advantage -2, 0 or 1 fatigue level
+13 attack vs +20 defense: attack doesn't break defense
+8 on attack vs +18 defense, attack doesn't break defense
In these two cases, the first two give Inigo slightly better chance for fatigue with first pair roll and pretty much stalemate for second. There is a technique disparity but second choice for both technique and form would have made it almost same in arts (9/10 for Inigo instead of 17/12, Erat would have been similiar so purely dice luck.
The biggest conclusion is that it is easier to avoid an opponent's best form and get form edge than their best technique and 17 years isn't that great a difference. Compare a 10 year from gauntlet of 33-35 with an 80-90 year old mage and things might be a lot different.
Yeah, choosing Arts correctly is the strategy to winning. In this example, if Inigo would have foolishly chosed Imaginem or Mentem, he would have had no chance at all. He chose Ignem, a weak point for his opponent, but he had weaker points and so settled for a low Art as opposed to a 0 Art.
Thanks. Now I see. I find your earlier statement very misleading. The younger magus won because he was using better Arts (and essentially had better Arts with regard to being challenged) than the older magus in the combination used. Compare their weakening and resistance totals against each other and because he rolled better. There's only a 1 point difference there. The major difference was in combination of attack/defense totals because the younger guy fought in his stronger Arts. If we look at the rolls, we have the winner rolling 8, 2x4=8, 9, and 7 (an average of 8 ). Meanwhile the loser rolled 5, 3, 5, and 0 (an average of 4.25). The dice rolls and the superior Arts were what were going to win it for the younger magus, even with the older magus's expenditure of vis.
We could look at it differently. Let's redo the whole thing without the Puissant Parma Magica. Inigo then loses one more fatigue level and still wins in the same round. Therefore his superior Parma Magica had no effect on the outcome of the battle.
Besides the dice rolls, what it really comes down to is that the younger magus has better Arts than the older magus when it comes to being challenged. The older magus's highest Form is 6. The younger magus has two Forms of 17+ (assuming the famed illusionist's Imaginem is on par with his Ignem). What would have really made a difference would have been the challenge occurring in the opposite direction. I'm guessing this just really highlights two known things: 1) the favor goes to the challenged in Certamen and 2) the advanced magus rules (assuming you used that 30/year) don't really fit the expected average (it looks like the older magus is effectively only about 3 years older even if he is much more in actuality).
I'd even guess that if the older magus had not spent the vis, he would have lost regardless of how he'd chosen the Arts. If you'd be willing to share their scores in the other Techniques and in Imaginem, we can see.
Chris
PS: Yes, I agree Puissant Parma Magica is awesome; I just disagree that it makes much of a difference in Certamen.
Not misleading at all. I did not memorize the conflict. I just know the younger guy beat the older guy, and it was due to strategic choice of Arts, superior Characteristics, and higher scores in Arcane Abilities relevant to Certamen.
Erat mistakenly chose Inigos best Technique, as it was also his own best Technique. He accepted Inigo's choice of Ignem because the alternative could have been much worse. If Inigo chose Imaginem, Erat had a much higher score. I don't design my NPC's with the scores and stats of players in mind. I create them independantly. So, things just worked out they way they did without any preplanning or design on my part. Certamen was used to resolve a conflict, it provided us some excitement, and the winner felt rewarded and fufilled (and was well aware that luck was factor in his victory).
Thus, Certamen worked out exactly the way it is supposed to.
Inigo's charactersheet is in the "Character Sheets" thread of Light of Andorra. I will send you Erat Caecus as a PM so you can compare things.
Ah, I mistook part of that. I misread it as Erat's best Form was Ignem. If it's one of his worst, why didn't Erat ask for another Form? Well, I suppose there is the whole "good form" thing.
Any way, the idea is as was mentioned earlier: the odds heavily favor any specialist who is being challenged. You only need to have two good Forms.
I starting thinking about those rolls. The odds of out-rolling someone four times in a row is roughly 2.5% (doing this in my head, so give me +/-0.4%). The odds of out-rolling someone by three or more four times in a row is quite slim.
Chris
Can't argue against that. Why not just roll once and get the pain over quickly.
If it isn't a duel of honor why bother with it? It is a duel and if it is not honorable then no one with the sense god granted goats would put up with it. That is why honor was so important in dueling cultures which by its exsitance the order is. If it is some cheap trick to impose your will on others then to heck with it, I just chop your head off. No powerful mage would tolerate something since..."I challenge you to certamen." "Go to hades you pathetic worm, in one month we shall meet in war."
Either certamen is viewable as a codified duel or else no one would be idiotic enough to bother with it.
And if it is a codified duel then there are forms to be followed.
Why did they make sure the weapons in a duel were the same? You bring a flintlock I bring an uzi.
Again in a dueling culture there is a line between making the young foolish upstart look like a twit and being a bully. One is worthy of a beer in the pub the other is worthy of finding that no one will talk to you in the same pub.
Your magically weak mage is dead the second he gets real power anyway so what is the point? You can't hold what you can't hold and without magical power to back you up you are a pathetic wannabe in the Order of Hermes. Political power only counts when magical power is the same. Poltically strong but magically weak is someone who is the 3rd spear carrier from the back of the line for some other mage. Why do we consider this?
There is nothing wrong with playing such a character but he or she is clearly someone elses flunky or at the very best the shadow behind the throne. The order isn't about merit or politics its about power. Since the consiquences of misjudging someones power is being reduced to ashes (or insert some other grizzly death) then politics comes to play.
And if he can't certamen to save his life then he is in serious difficulty in a dueling culture which as I said before the existance of certamen as a conflict resolution requires the Order to be.
Within that context of such a society then "buying" a duel by a means other than a champion would be verbotten.
You can spar with wooden swords or blunted weapons or caped points, and you can fight to the first blood or to the death. There is no reason certamen can't have degrees. It should be a part of the order of hermes or it should be removed (because it would have been removed years ago after one too many mages with power got tired of it).
I am utterly unfamilier with this Dark Crystal...I don't know if you mean a book or a movie or a tv series.
No other house would allow this. Having a political decision making process which clearly favors one of the houses? No, that is absurd beyond belief. The other 11 would put their feet down and declare it null and void and what would Tremere do? War with them all? Tremere having an advantage in terms of starting value makes sense but some sort of virtue? No that is silly.
Its like saying all decisions can be challenged by fisicuffs but only one group gets to use both hands all the others have to fight with one arm tied behind their backs.
I've spared for fun with people...generally most people who fight with weapons enjoy both testing their skill, demonstrating it and learning from a new opponent why should certamen not be like that? It is a way to demontrate you skill in the Art without destroying several square miles of scenary and upsetting the locals.
It can also be deadly and dangerous, but I see no reason it has to be all the time. I was not very serious about using to detemine the order of the watch or who takes out the cat but merely trying to indicate it could be used for a variety of reasons.
The only use of it in our saga was that one of the players was terrified to certamen the tremere player. Frankly I don't find it a sensible thing and wouldn't use it, my character has 36 inches of cold steel and a will to use it. But since it can dominate a tribunal or stupidly enough a covenent then clearly the leader needs to be prepared for it, or else have a champion.
And basing it on how much vis you can afford to chuck at it is absurd. Its a duel, the basis of any duel has been a level playing field. Outside of that level-ness you have a farce. And I've seen no compelling reason for the mages of the order to stand for a farce when they have the power to stop it. And using it to bully the younger mages is not a sufficient reason since they can do that in many many other ways.
I don't dissagree exactly but there is no reason to not view it as a duel and not all duels are dangerous and agressive. Some are because the soup was bad, the lady's gown was maligned or the moon is full.
Nothing ticks me off more than min-maxed twinky powergaming "builds" sorry I do not want rules where min-maxing need apply. Games need less not more of that. I have enough of this when I play on line games I don't need it in ars.
Certamen should be fun, it should be something useful to the game, it should be something that exists within the scope of a player, it should be accessable to all players equally, it should be skill based rather than determined by outside parameters, and it should be something like Parma that all players see the value in. Otherwise eject it out the photon tube and find a replacement.
Also don't read anything into the negatives beyond the fact we dissagree, I think you have valid points...just ones that aren't in line with my views.
I agree that it is irritating for the players that the Tremere have a Certamen focus. But, I'm not so sure that in-character the other Houses would have grounds for complaint.
It is not necessarily the case that in-character other magi can determine that Tremere have a focus in certamen. Sure, they know that Tremere are rather good at certamen, and they can probably guess that must mean that Tremere practice certamen a lot during their apprenticeship. Which I guess could be true, anyway...the Tremere may well just get the Focus from practicing a lot, or they may get it from some sort of Mystery-type initiation, I don't believe that this is ever specified. In any case, a Tytalus magus cannot look at the Tremere magi's character sheet and read that it has Minor Focus (Certamen) written on it.
Unless, of course, in your saga it is possible to determine that a character has a magical focus via some kind of InCo(Vi) spell. Although, using such a spell would then presumably count as scrying.
Anyway, the point is that in-character all that magi from other Houses definitely know is that Tremere are quite good at certamen. They might suspect that the Tremere are somehow cheating, but the Tremere are just going to say that they are good because they practice a lot. This might even be the truth in-character, and even it isn't, it is unclear whether there is any way in-character to refute this.
This is why I like the Rhine system where Masters automatically win against Journeymen (and Archmagi auto-win against Masters).
Because of this, as players, we only end up rolling the dice for the peer-to-peer engagments which are more fun. Peer to peer certamen is more fun (for the players) because there is more uncertainty about the outcome, and there is some strategy behind which Arts are selected and which you use for attack and defense each round.
Because Ignem wasn't his worst Form. The alternate choice could have been worse. And in part it was overconfidence. If you look at the breakdown, Erat's plan was to try to knock Inigo out the very first round using Perdo for Offense, and thus was not concerned with Defense as much as he should have been. He failed of course, and the unwise strategy bit him.
I disagree, the specialist is at the greatest disadvangtage. The fewer high Arts he has, the less likelyhood that they will get picked, and if he has a reputation for said specialty, duelists will always avoid those Arts. And Form scores are never chosen by the challenger. In order to emply Certamen diplomacy, you need to be the agressor and thus you rely on Technique. You will get nowhere fast waiting around to e challenged.
Stranger things have happened. They were straight dice rolls, no fudges. The dice don't care what number came up in the previous roll. Each die roll is a separate event and a separate probability.
Though that said, we've just had a non peer-to-peer duel (well, where one party had about ten years on the other) in which the younger magus basically got lucky. But with that, the threat of Certamen was always looming in the story, and the expectation of being beaten led to attempts at negotiation (though with a weak hand).
Because the alternatives - a Tribunal vote or Wizard War - are both too risky and uncertain for both parties. Sure, I could declare Wizard War over whatever we're disagreeing about, but there's always the risk, however unlikely, that you might get lucky and kill or maim me - or that you might have or be able to buy powerful friends who will declare on me in turn. Likewise, I can take this dispute over vis ownership to Tribunal. But that will take seven years, cost vis, and may not produce the outcome I desire.
Certamen isn't about honour (though some Magi and some Tribunals may interpret and use it that way). It is about managing risk and (from the Order's POV) limiting conflict to "safe" levels.
(While I'm at it: I find it very odd that the default assumption in this discussion is that all magi are homicidal maniacs and that any dispute is automatically worth killing over. I find these assumptions unrealistic, to say the least, and more typical of D&D than ArM).
It's a movie. the relevant scene (in Skeksis!) is here (at 1:30)
But it doesn't. It favours the strongest (as determined by the proxy of Certamen). Certamen matters, the Tremere therefore train to be good at it (just as they strive to be masters in the Rhine) - but anyone who works as hard as them can also be good at it.
You also forget that political arrangements are born of historical circumstances and evolve, rather than being created from a tabula rasa. When certamen was originally adopted, it did not favour any House. Past abuses have seen it limited so that magi cannot be forced to e.g. violate the Code, but have not been enough to do away with it entirely (because it is so useful to senior magi). There may be some in the modern Order who feel it is unfair and should be repealed. And their struggle to do so is called a "story"...
It essentially was. If he's ready to train an apprentice, then he couldn't be more than 1 worse in any other Form. Meanwhile he's fighting someone known for an Ignem specialty. Based only on this knowledge, there are no worse choices.
Which is a very good reason.
This would require said specialist to be incredibly stupid. If I challenge you, and you are a specialist, why would you not choose one of your two good Forms? Seems like the odds are 100% that one of them will be chosen.
No, no. The Forms are chosen by the one being challenged. The challenger chooses the Technique.
Only sort of. Certamen does not happen if there is no dispute. If you are safe being challenged because you are very strong in two Forms, then you have the ability to be the bully first. If the other person decides to challenge you, then you'll probably win anyway. Not only that, if you do happen to lose, you still have the opportunity to challenge them back.
I wouldn't dispute any of that. The point is only that the winning magus got exceptionally lucky with the die rolls as well.
Chris
Someone he figured was a Creo Ignem specialist, and from his reputation Erat would have figured him to be heavier on Creo (Inigo is a Knight of Seneca, and they favor Creo magic). And besides, he is not ready to train an apprentice. If I remember correctly, he had five other Art scores that were lower.
The best 
Difference in how we define terms I guess. specialist isn't a two Form man, he is a single Tech & Form man. But my main point is still that you need to be the agressor if you wish to get anywhere with Certamen diplomacy, and thus need to have a dual Technique specialization as well.
My bad. I mis-spoke (mis-wrote?). I had ment to say Form scores are never chosen by the challenger (I edited the original post)
And I can be a bully back. Being a bully will not get you very far without use of Certamen to back it up. If you want an official resolution, you need to do the challenging.
The rolls were not all that exceptionally lucky. If the dual was using different Arts but the same roll results, the outcome could have been much different.