Ablating in the name of God

Imagine this character:

  • Summoning
  • Ablating
  • Infernal lore (free)

The idea is to create a "real" Malleus, not a deluded one: This guy goes around summoning demons and ablating them completely, transforming their points into vis prava and destroying the vis prava.

Could that be a non-Sinful (or at least, a pardonable) activity? Or would he simply be one of the deluded Witch Hammers?

the big question is: can you truly destroy a demon, or is that a delusion? :smiling_imp:

Suicide is a sin.

OK, I know that doing something that will lead to your death is not considered suicide if the death is incidental to your purpose and is merely a unfortunate byproduct. So, covering someone with your body to protect them from harm and being killed is not suicide, even if your actions lead to your death. The problem is not a theological one, it is a practical one. That sort of behavior causes very evil and devious creatures to plot your destruction, ones that are not interested in a fair fight.

Serf's Parma, but IIRC the Divine draws no distinction between murdering demons and murdering humans. I do like the idea for a demon-hunter - either an infernalist determined to redeem himself by killing as many demons as he can before going to Hell. Or a Holy Personage who suffered infernal warping and later taught himself Summoning and Ablation from a diabolist's grimoire or perhaps stumbled upon some Yezidi lore while searching for ways to combat demons.

Either way, he sounds like an great character!

Hmm... I didn't know that about the Divine. So murder is murder. Right. It can still be a fallen character wanting to achieve redemption (and probably failing).

To follow that line, and as a nasty joke from Hell, it could be useful to have Ablating as a False (inexistent) Power: he does not have ablating, but the demons pretend to be destroyed. You commit a Capital Sin (voluntary act) over and over again to redeem yourself and do not even achieve your (Sinful) target, even if you try very hard. Welcome to your summer vacations in Hell. :smiling_imp: I can see demons doing that.


Wouldn't it be dangerous, not to say careless, to summon an Infernal creature at all, a creature that otherwise might have laid dormant, suspended, or at least might not have acted target-orientated? — Not only for the magus in question, but for each and everyone intentionally or accidentally crossing the summoner's path and thus, unknowingly, serving as a collateral target.

Oh my goodness... That is SO evil. And a good idea for a rather twisted saga probably. :mrgreen:

what is sinful is to invocate demons... not to destroy them... a demon has not good soul...

I agree. The commandment is "Thou shalt not kill." Although the word is translated as "kill," the meaning is "murder." It is not a sin to kill vegetables or animals for food. It's not a sin to kill a witch. The sin is murder, killing someone for a bad, unjustified reason. Destroying demons isn't a sin. I would argue that you cannot even kill them. If they have a soul, it's eternal and cannot be destroyed. If they don't, then there just a spirit which is, was, and never will be alive.

No, Ablating is an Infernal Power. So whenever you use it, you sin.

Any man of true faith would see how it can't be a good thing to summon into the land of men things that the Lord banished, only to destroy them. An act of pride, at the very least.

That said, there is no evil that true repentance won't cleanse. The Lord's mercy is infinite.

Which is just what a demon would say if it was in fact a sin.

In-character, I would say that most people would argue that killing a demon isn't a sin. But in-character there are surely people who would argue that it was. Even if it is a sin, that's not a problem for a demon-hunter, he can just confess and perform penance. The only problem he faces if is he dies before he confesses.

In-character the only way to be really sure one way or the other is when you are judged at Judgement Day. Which if it occurs is likely the end of your saga.

If a demon-hunter knowingly commits a sin and treats Confession as just a "rinse and repeat" option ,
then he is not truly repentant and cannot be absolved , by the Priest , of his sins , no matter how much penance he does.

You can always make a last minute Act of Contrition , if a Priest cannot be found in time.
At least thats what i recall from catechism classes from over 40 years ago.

Hmm... so it is unclear if destroying a demon is a sin?

Would it be better (less sinful or not sinful at all) to simply banish them without damaging them? Even if they can return if you do that?

Is using Ablating a Sin? What "sin level"?

RoP:tI states that if a demon is killed / Might stripped, its soul returns to Hell - but not as a demon, as one of the damned sinners. It no longer gets to occasionally escape the torments of Hell and walk on earth as it did as a demon; it is now just a tormented soul. Its fellows probably take even more vicious delight in punishing this once-demonic soul as they do ordinary sinners.


So, demons have souls. or at least transform to souls when destroyed. That means that if you destroy a demon you condemn a soul to suffer the ravages of Hell. That reads as "extra-sinful act" in my book. Being a demon hunter can be quite a sure way to damn your own soul, then, even if you use pure holy methods.

So, if you are already damned, you'd better take out the heavy artillery. :exclamation:


Ablating is an Infernal power. I'd say Infernalism ranks pretty high in the "sin hierarchy"...

killing a demon is not a sin, otherwise, angels would be sinning, and angels cannot sin as they have only the good soul.

Demon have only a bad soul and thus cannot be saved

humans have both good and bad soul, and so are the only once to be able to choose between bad and good (free will).

when you summon a demon, he comes from hell and if you "kill" him, he is just sent back... he is part of hell and so cannot suffer the ravages of hell...

Summoning demons is sinful and if ablating is an infernal power, I guess it would be difficult to have that power at the same time as true faith

so it is no use to summon them for killing them... in the contrary, if you miss, a powerful demon could be send in the world by your fault...

what you can do if you have true faith is to send demons you find in the world back to hell... not to call them to send them back

I am not sure Demons kill demons, or just send them back to Hell. When you Ablate a demon you make him a condemned soul, so he stops being a demon to become a plain old tortured sinner: he loses his powers completely and cannot come back. So you destroy him as a demon.

If you summon a demon, you are way more likely to be summoning demons that are already in the world than the ones residing in Hell. There are more than enough demons already in Mythic Europe for that.

Summoning demons from hell is not what this character would be trying to do. There are enough demons around to worry about having to have to call them by phone to come. Shouting around is enough to find a few each day :stuck_out_tongue:

If you use Commanding to send them back (Begone order) you do not destroy them. so the result is less definitive than if you strip them of their might. Ablating is much more definitive. As pointed out it might be a sure way to condemn yourself anyway. And then there is the practical-ish problem pointed out by Dwight: hell might take a personal interest in kicking you to hell prematurely (for your liking) if you destroy too many of their agents.


It is the demons rejection of God and that demons sins which damn him/her/it to hell, not the fact that his is destroyed. If demons were capable of repentance, it could be different. It is canonical that they are not capable of repentance, they have free will but have already decided against God and are incapable of changing their mind. Being destroyed by ablation or by Demons Eternal Oblivion is not what dooms them to hell, it just traps them there on a permanent basis a little sooner.

If the lord wanted them destroyed, then he would have done so himself - not just imprisoned them.
Basically what you are doing is breaking the inmates out of prison to kill them. Which means you are activly saying that the Lord's judgement is WRONG...

Offcourse, if that is false faith he has - then this could work just fine - he could hear voices telling him of specific demons that must be destroyed (enemies of the demon responsible for the character)

Err... this character would NOT be summoning demons FROM HELL, but the ones that are already active in Mythic Europe. (Serf's parma) In fact, I am not sure that Summoning can summon demons from Hell at all. Since these are already escapees from Hell, I am not sure it would be claiming that God is wrong here. Otherwise he would not have provided his followers (the ones using Holy Methods) to be able to exorcise demons...