Adelbert, a "Magi of Hermes" look at intellego and Astrology

What's the level of the Intangible Tunnel?
I'm looking at the InVi guidelines and thinking there might be a more relevant base for this effect?

Couldn't you just instead design the Tunnel with a special effect to make it visible? Perhaps with an Imaginem requisite?

That would save him a season, and he could certainly use it. It also makes the final effects less confusing to the reader.

The two rubrics I typically think about when asking if something is possible as a spell are, "does the spell think for itself?", and "is the spell doing just one thing?". I think creation of a visible arcane tunnel passes both of these tests. The level 45 tunnel was a result of Adelbert's lab total and what he could get done in two seasons rather than figuring how big of a tunnel he'd need.

[strike]A quick look through his spell list shows that there isn't too much he'd sacrifice by dropping the tunnel to level 40 (Coterie of Burly Advocates would be a pretty sweet spell to be able to produce at a distance but it is not what the device is really designed for).[/strike] Looking at his lab total again I see that I forgot to add his +6 similar spell bonus for Opening the Intangible Tunnel, with an early riser lab schedule for one season he can pull off a level 65 effect. Edit yet again: and there's the possibility of a laboratory horoscope for a bonus of up to +5, running a character to 180 years old means gathering lots of options, who could have predicted that?

Is it reasonable to only make one end of the tunnel visible without a further spell level increase?
Does the spell also need a creo requisite? (I'm thinking no, but it might be worth hammering out in discussion)

Re: Adding a moving image to OtIT - it could go either way.
I started drafting spells when the idea was suggested a few posts up and thought it would add +1 mag, however other spells (which I can’t recall atm) often have cosmetic alterations. It certainly needs Im, probably does not need Cr, and probably should alter by +1 mag for the sub effect.
Strictly it should have all three.
The reason I decided this was while creating a moving image linked to the end of a tunnel isn’t any harder than creating any other CrIm spell (say level 5ish), however it does change the spell in a particular way that would make it far better or far worse in some circumstances.

If I change the way that the imaginem requisite makes the tunnel visible, then I don't need to answer the question of does it require a creo requisite and accompanying extra magnitude.

The plan for the map is to have one effect that creates the image, one effect that alters the image to conform to the observations of Adelbert's agents, and one effect to control the image so as to be able to zoom in to a specific place and look at it from all angles. I'll tackle the effect to create the image first.

The Creo Imaginem guideline to create an image to effect 1 sense is level 1. The standard individual for imaginem is the size/loudness/smelliness/tastiness/etc. of an adult human. To create a human sized image at range touch duration sun is level 4 to make it a constant effect is another 4 levels for linked trigger and two uses per day. That's more or less what Adelbert wants his map table to do -create an image which he will later alter.

The guidelines do specifically say that increasing the complexity of an image raises the spell level (this is in reference to having a moving image rather than one which contains a finer level of detail, but I'm still going to abide with it). So how much detail does he need? If he's going to have his image contain every sight experienced by 30 years worth of animals looking about how many standard humans does that equal - yet is creating a detailed image that's the size of a carpet really as difficult as creating as standard resolution image the physical size of the entire Iberian peninsula?

His applicable lab total is in the vicinity of
Creo 16
Imaginem 15
Intelligence 5
Magic theory 18
Intelligence Claritas 5
Magic theory Claritas 13
Aura 3
Lab 4
Shape and material (at least +7)?
Lab schedule ?
Similar spells?
Lab Horoscope +2-+5

at least 88, that means in two seasons he could enchant a level 57 or 58 effect

so base 1 +1 touch, +2 sun, +10 magnitudes increased detail +3 levels linked trigger, +4 levels 12 uses per day

So if we make the jump that increasing detail is both similar to and no easier or harder than just creating a larger image (which I think is a bit harsh) and if we assume that there is no natural limit to the amount of detail that an image can have (it's mot made of atoms, it's an image, it's not even made of species). The table can hold the detail of 10[sup]10[/sup] standard images, ten billion of them. Is that enough to capture all of the iberian penisula plus a fair ways in to modern France and North Africa? How about 100 billion?

What issues do you take with my assumptions?

If I translate 10 standard images into one "room" image and I say that a standard room can be as large as 100 square paces. Then using a meter as a pace, and my 10[sup]10[/sup] images changed to 10[sup]9[/sup] "rooms" worth. I get 1,000,000 square kilometers- smaller than what he wants.

I'll have him add another magnitude to get a map with the storage capacity he needs (he'll get more shape and material boni or something). Really there are enough assumptions in this that using any precision feels more than a bit silly. I'll note that at a gut level it feels like it should be easier to make a small image with all of the detail than to make a full sized image so I don't expect at this point to be swayed by arguments for a higher level. But you could surprise me.

For an enchantment to rotate and zoom in on the image he'd need to use rego imaginem. The rego imaginem guidelines are all about moving images and he doesn't want the image displaced, base 3 moves an image in a disorienting way. If you wanted to be high enough above the ground that the entire area of the map is within your view at once, you'd want to be about 100 km up - to move an image to the location of an arcane connection you need a base level of 15.

I'm going to set the base level at 5 half way between these two things, the effect is doing a lot more than just moving the image in a disorienting way, and it's doing less than moving the image 100 km closer to the viewers face.

Note that despite choosing a base of 5 I added a magnitude of complexity. He should be able to do a level 40 in a single season.

Now as far as updating the image from the observations of linked creatures, I had earlier mentioned a plan where Adelbert first improved the memory of the targeted creatures and then pulled the memories from the creatures minds to update his map. Upon reflection it makes more sense to make an effect that does a live update from what the creature is experiencing at the moment.

So first the table needs to know where the creatures are.

Then it needs to update the image. This involves both base 10 read the surface thoughts of an animal (or 15 for a human), and a rego imaginim to alter the existing image to conform to what the target is observing

I added a magnitude for complexity on that one becasue it seemed justified to me. But level 70 is a huge task for Adelbert so he spends one season inventing the following spell just so he can gain a similar spells bonus.

This is very much like the Crown of Inhuman Perspective and the Vision of the Companion effect of his familiar bond but he can't get a similar spell bonus without an actual spell.

Even with the +9 similar spell bonus, the level 70 enchantment still takes Adelbert 3 seasons.

I recently observed in the A Shelf Full of Spells thread that some of us don't think that a device can run multiple duration concentration effects at the same time. If you happen to be of that persuasion, you should make Location of the Unwitting Surveyor and Reworking the Tiny World duration Sun rather than duration concentration with item maintains. They will then fit better in to your gray, depressing, glass is half empty world :stuck_out_tongue: (Please note the smiley to indicate humorous intent).

I'll describe the enchanted item and clearly write up all of the enchantments in the next post, well at least as clearly as I can manage to write anyway

I definitely feel that, with magic, it is not more difficult to make a detailed small image than a detailed large image - but I don't know if I'd call it 'easier'. I've already given up on painting miniatures because of how hard it is to get the detail right. That said, I instead feel you don't need the same level of detail on a smaller image. The patterns on the back of a nobleman's gold medallion are not easier to make with CrIm if the image is miniaturized, but even putting them there, you don't notice the details so small. The smaller the image is, the more and more 'greater detail' is lost because of inability to perceive it.
Reading through this again, this might be what you actually meant. We'll see.

To clarify my own point, I have no problem with an item maintaing multiple spell concentrations at once, I just feel that if it's containing an environmental trigger to recast the spell at sun-up, if it has three copies of the spell active, it won't necessarily recast all three of them, because it only has a single linked trigger. My world isn't depressing and grey, it's depressing and clockwork. :wink:

So the plan is to create an image of the entirety of Iberia with as much detail as his creatures observe. In other words he expects to be able to record individual blades of grass over the entire peninsula, yet the image itself is only about three paces long in any direction. He then wants to use a rego imaginem effect to "zoom in" on an individual part of the image so that the user can see a useful level of detail (intellego imaginem would be a another way to do this, but I chose rego).

I hope that makes things clear. It's a complex idea and I'm not (yet) the most skilled writer in terms of communicating clearly.

It was Callen's take on the subject that I thought was different, yet sensible enough that I shouldn't completely ignore it.

Hi,

I think the item should not even be able to maintain concentration on the same effect cast multiple times. It recasts an effect and now maintains concentration on that effect instead.

Anyway,

Ken

You see! Ken likes to hinder his players with unnecessarily restrictive interpretations of the rules in order to make them feel weak and powerless. I just wanted to acknowledge his point of view and provide him with an option that lets him play the game in the way that he wants. (I kid because I love)

Hi,

grin

It's a fair point!

It deserves a real answer.

considers

Ok. I advocate for player agency and power, but I am not of the "Just Say Yes" school. I'm more like:

  1. Say yes if you can and move on. If it's reasonable for a PC to be able to do something, let it happen and move on. Does the player have Magic Lore 10? Tell him the esoteric information he wants to know. Don't bother with dice. Don't make him go through a tedious research and Q&A story. Does he want to take a virtue? Probably just say yes. Invent a spell? Oh no, things get tricky here, because the rules are ambiguous and you can easily break the game, in the sense that I mean, not the usual "but that's so OP" sense.
  2. Say no if you can and move on. Sometimes a GM knows that something is impossible, or close enough to it for government work. Don't let your Flambeau try to roll lots of 1s in order to suddenly invent the calculus, or a Guernicus master of Terram create some plutonium. No. Does a PC have Magic Lore 1? Feel free to decide that he simply never heard of something.
  3. Roll dice only if you truly don't know.

So you don't need to start every combat with perception checks, because sometimes you just know. You ought just declare "you win" or ask "how do you want the battle to go" if it's clear that the PCs are going to mop up; doing anything else is just a waste of time.

So, about the item maintaining zillions of concentration effects... Does this seem like it belongs in the game universe? Forget about the power of it, since I am comfortable assuming that a magus can destroy Mythic Europe, held in check only by other magi. I'm simply talking about how Hermetic Magic feels, what ought to work and what ought to not work.

I tend to look strictly at spell effects, because not doing so makes everything a banana (fires can burn the unburnable, the unsolid is solid, this); Forms and Techniques collapse into one thing, the idea that a permanent effect is necessary mostly goes away, and so on. The rules are wobbly.

Allowing this allows something like enchanting a CrMe into the familiar bond for +1 Int, with the Bond maintaining concentration. Then cast this multiple times on yourself and the familiar so you both now have +5 Int. No Warping, and less vis than casting multiple ritual spells. Or maybe use Muto, to grant an unnaturally high Int beyond +5! How far beyond? Well, since the item can maintain concentration on every effect instance.... Of course, we'd first need to get agreement on how the MuMe effect would work, since there's no guideline for that. There are probably better examples that more clearly scale arbitrarily high.

Is that how you want the magic system to work?

Anyway,

Ken

I'm not eager to use this particular thread to work towards finding an interpretation that everyone finds the best for items that maintain concentration (we could make a new thread).

Yet it does jump out at me that your Creo Mentem example works equally well with duration Sun, so it doesn't actually address the issue of items simultaneously concentrating on multiple effects. The only advantage of duration concentration with the item maintaining would have in this instance, is to allow your familiar to make you dumber whenever he or she chose to. Heck, with duration sun you could make the effects constant rather than having to reapply them every sunrise and sunset, you can't do that with duration concentration. Or, more likely, I'm completely, or at least significantly, misunderstanding you.

(Also effects in the familiar bond can target the familiar, the magus, or both together but not either alternately.)

Effects that target the magus are cast by the familiar, and vice versa.

A CrMe effect can target either. If there are multiple uses, the magus can target the familiar with one use, and the familiar can target the magus with another.

No, here's the quote from page 105

The examples of mental communication and shared senses on the same page make the meaning unambiguous.

And now our tangent has traveled far beyond the sight of the original topic, wandering in distant lands with no clear way home. I blame me.

Hi,

Hmm. No books at hand, but I remember reading it and coming away with a different interpretation.

So, perhaps ambiguous? :slight_smile:/2

Shame!

Anyway,

Ken

Adelbert spends one season opening the Table for enchantment, Two seasons enchanting Creation of the Diminutive World, One season on Gazing Within the Miniature, one season on Location of the Unwitting Surveyor, and two seasons enchanting Reworking the Tiny World. Adelbert also spends a season to learn View from Another's Eyes.

I've used fifteen of his laboratory seasons so far, that leaves nine left.

The last one is the interesting one I think.

Interesting in general, or interesting in an 'is that really the way it should work' manner?

I think that rego is the way to do this. Creo and muto have durations. My model is that the image is already there in all of its 12 magnitudes of added complexity glory. Reworking the Tiny World is just moving parts of it around and repainting it, altering what's already there.

I imagine that he could also do it with a muto imaginem effect with a constant duration. This seems cleaner to me, (and also more likely to spark a discussion).

If he does the mind reading effect and the image alteration effect separately, is getting these two effects to work together sketchier?