And for magical objects resistance nay opinion?
Well, in my last story nobody of the palyers was worried for the Aegis and nabody casted... I might give them problems for that... but nobody cared about giants, ghosts and efrrts atacking ... strange players yes.
And, do the Aegis affect the regios of the Covenant?
Wards are Wards.
Wards block -- no penetration necessary.
There have been many "logical" changes of late in magic resistance, penetration, and the like that are not obvious in the rules, but are assumed to be there. Most of them create odd limits to power, but much more importantly really, really confuse players and storyguides as they try to remember them all.
Nope -- wards block up to their power. Keep it simple.
Mostly because they keep thinking by 4th edition standards. Which is also, IMHO, why it was murky in the rules.
Which rule is simpler?
"All spells have to penetrate"
or
"All spells have to penetrate, save ward. And Aegis."
I think you misunderstood me. I'm arguing my interpretation of the RAW, not what I think the rules ought to be.
Definitely the former. A significant part of the problem is that the Ward guidelines are still based around 4th Ed penetration concepts, where Spell Level and Spell Penetration were the same. Frankly, I favour just making Warding against X function the same way as Warding against humans - a flat guideline. It minimises worrying which spells you need, means specialists can cast more potent wards than generalists and means you still only need to keep track of one number per ward - namely the penetration rather than the level and the penetration.
Would you mind to elaborate on this? I still fail to see what makes wards even useful, not even too powerful as you stated if they have to penetrate. I am genuinely curious about what makes you say such a thing. My casting total for wards is certainly not 60, that is what I would need for casting a level 30 ward that manages to keep a Might 30 creature outside.... (might 30 critters are relatively average beasts, BTW). Unless I master the spell that is. But mastering with penetration basically goes back to the munchkinism of 4th edition and breaks the resistance rules that caused the change for 5th edition once again, so that is a moot point. 
Good point! Never thought about it. Now, there MUST be a reason why the aegis is cast on Winter's solstice. My guess is that otherwise it lasts for Sun duration or something. Not as per the RAW, but makes more sense that way. Hmm... here comes a story hook....
My current opinion exactly
Cheers,
Xavi
Wards not needing to pentrate actually makes more sense.
If you creo Terram a magic rock and throw it at a magus, it needs to penetrate. You creo Terram a wall though, the magus can not walk up to it and just push their way through using magic resistance. They can if they are strong enough though, push it down or break a hole in it.
A ward is a wall. A special kind of wall but it is a wall. The creature that the ward is against, walks up and pushes against the wall. If their aura strength is high enough, they push it down or create a hole to let themselves in, If it isn't strong enough, it holds them out. Strength of the ward is the strength of the wall. To require a casting total of 40 to keep out any magical might 20 creatures is more than just hard. Few beginning mages can manage it.
I remember the first adventure of my current Rhine saga. We encountered Bauchman (don't have book for spelling). They had high magical might. When there are 4-6 of them attacking with 3 mages (one of them out cold from spont spells), guide and 3 grogs, getting arcane connections is 1) not easy and 2) only affects one of them and 3) very few of us had much penetration, no one had mastered spells (we were all newly guantleted to 1 year out of apprenticeship).
There was no way we would have had the arcane connections, penetration, or other specials to ward them off. Even if we had someone with good scores to get off a level 20 ward, we were starting mages, no way to get penetration to 40 in a surprise attack like that. Even 10 years in, getting that sort of casting total against a surprise attack, I suspect will be impossible. Sure, if you know it is coming and can plan, it is great but lots of things are going to be spur of the moment and surprise when you aren't ready and don't know the foe is coming (at least the first attack).
Without wizard's communiion (so far no one has it in our group), high level ward, Mastery (no one even has the ward yet and what if that person isn't with the group) and arcane connection, you are out of luck.
You are trying to justify the wards penetration requirement because of ideal conditions and a ward specialist and even that every wizard in your saga has wizard's communion and the supply of vis to cast it freely. (Our saga, the covenant has a 175 pawn debt to be paid off over 25 years to Durenmar and only 6 paws vim a year plus 2 per mage the brewing, only 3 mages right now). Yes, in the hands of a specialist with a covenant focused on cooperative spell casting, you can do miracles. For a spring covenant, our auram specialist flambeau, animal/corpus fertility focused criamon and mentem focused bonisagus are not going to be getting tons of warding spells, or wizards communion quickly nor do we have vis for it)
I am asked to explain my point of view, I'll try to do it the best I can.
Remember: I say wards are too powerfull by our saga standards. I would also be bold enough to propose that this is the reason why there is disagreement on issues about wards needing to penetrate.
I do think using wards as defined in the RAW is unbalanced. (i.e. with the need to penetrate). The fact that I play a character specialised in Wards, after thinking about it, is only a magnifier of this problem. Maybe it's why, I think, our troupe is very aware of this.
Of course, since (and because) in our saga Aegis needs to penetrate, our mages learned Wizard's communion. I would expect Mages, in a saga not requiring Aegis to penetrate, to not have learned it. Or at least with less eagerness.
The reason why RAW wards is unbalanced, is because mobile wards also are ultimate and "leak proof". This is not a problem for circle wards, because they are stationnary: you can't play an entire story within a circle.
I'll explain using an exemple about wards only,
demonstrating that most covenant would be able to have a member able to do the "ward trick".
No arcane connection, no ward focus, no mastery, but with mages with Wiz. Communion learned (see what I just said 3 sentence ago) . This is supposed by me to be a standard situation, i.e. very possible, though understand that Your Mileage WILL Vary, and vary a lot. (this thread is proof)
So I suppose a mage with a casting total of 30 in Rego Vim :
Stamina +1
aura assumed 0 for simplification
Rego 15
Vim 14
Penetration: +3
That's powerfull by our saga standards, 30 years out of apprentiship. But try to imagine that one mage can acheive this in the entire covenant is very possible. Moreso if wards does not the need to penetrate in your saga.
Fiodor wants to confront fearies in a forest.
Fiodor learn a level 25 Touch/Sun/Individual version of Ward against feary, ReVi20.
Just after raising Parma, he and a sodalis cast this spell on every grogs, companions, and both mages. They use Wiz. Communion, so the total penetration is
Casting total - (level / 2) + penetration =
30+D10 - (25/2) +3 =
20 + D10
Now, by the RAW, this group is IMMUNE to ANY attempt to affect the warded people, WHATEVER the means used, by a feary of Magic Resistance of less than 20+D10, up to 25 . No power, nor weapon held, can affect them. No indirect attack. Nothing.
At best, fearies can persuade, lie, lure, that sort of thing. Set traps. Of course, those are the best of games. But, I assume you already know (AND take this into account), how ultimate protection like those can change a game.
That's a real game breaker for our troupe.
Of course, like ladyphoenix say, if "They had high magical might", then you won't be able to ward them up. That's normal for me: you can't ward against creature more powerfull than you are.
In the end, the power level of your saga is important. Most of our opponents Might range from 10 to 20, with a few at 30.
Now, think about a group preparing: gathering important Arcane Connections, Casting within an Aura, Maybe bring in a third mage with WC, learning a higher level ward, Talisman attunement with Cold Iron (+7!), etc
Now, think about the Ward against humans, who wards of Hermetic Spells cast by an human (Mostly all, but transformed Bjornaer!). It's a flat Rego Corpus level 30 spell. Learn a Duration: Moon version, cast it with as many mage with WC as possible. (!!:shock: !!)
Then, at last, think about the power level of a Rego Vim specialist, with a focus in Wards... (ok ok, that's only my character, maybe I'm the only one 
)
Some people do not ask wards to penetrate: either we don't understand the RAW the same way, or they choose not to use unbalancing powers. Both a very fine by me: we also try not to "break" (outpower) our games.
Most gamers in our troupe would not remember we ever had an argument over wards needing to penetrate.
After much time put in our defences, we cast an Aegis level 30 with penetration 57+d10.
It is as simple and complicated as that last sentence for us: "We cast an Aegis level 30 with penetration 57+d10."
I like Fhtagn idea of a flat level for wards (vs might-creature): it would stick more with the 5th ed rules spirit. At least, I think personnal, mobile wards should be dealed with that way.
I like also the idea of all wards to give soak: I prefer no ultimate ward.
I think this merit a topic on it's own !
Point taken. Thanks for the thorough explanation 
Very informative stuff.
Now I see why I didn't see it the first time: our mobile wards ALREADY give a soak bonus instead of a total protection effect. It works fine for us there The only "ultimate" wards that we have are circle wards and those, as you pointed out, have their own issues and are way less overpowering.
Still, level 20 is goblin-level to us. Not something a normal (read: some time out of apprenticveship) worries a lot about. It is the big guards (might 40) and the leaders of the forest (might 60 or so) that he is hessitant to engage.
Cheers,
Xavi
PD: we have also been experimenting with the ability to place a Parma Magica on a circle as well, but that is still under playtest so far; it gives protection to mundanes at the cost of immobilizing your magus (or making him extremely vulnerable if he moves out!)
It may very well indeed be a power issue, because I view Might 30 as average-mid-level. Top dog comoner faeries would be at might 25-30, but even low ranking faerie nobles would be 35+. Might 20 is the standard for a companion in a high power game, and he could theoretically raise his might to 40 with Qualities.
But in your example, you mention the use of Arcane connections. You cannot use AC's in Wards, because the Target is the person being protected, not thge one you are warding against and need to penetrate. According to this math, it is far easier to simply obliterate an opponent with a single PeVi spell. Same level and penetration total as required for the Ward, but you get to add the AC and sympathetic connection, so you have a better shot at penetration. Perdo-Vim specialists rule the day versus a ward specialist if Wards need to penetrate.
It also depends on how you run your game I suppose. No insult intended, but I don't use D&D style encounters. Sometimes the faeries in the forest are no threat at all. They are there, but my scenerio does not depend on you having an evenly matched conflict with them. In fact, they way I tend to go at it, there isn't any way to "break" my game. I don't design linear a-b-then-c adventures. I creat a goal, a challenge, and sit back and watch what the players come up with. In fact, I do not design a specific solution. I actually need the players to "break" the game, because I didn't design a solution.
I read my own words and I realize I may sound condescending. I apologize for that, and admit that it is a flaw in my prose style. I am advisarial by nature. Anyway, A-B-C adventures can be fun. But I don't like running them, and when I play in them, it is usually me that "breaks" the linear format and jumps straight from A to C, dealing with B at my leisure when I have the advantage.
Now, having said all of that, I have designed an adventure where the players will seriously need Wards that don't require penetration. It involves a magic spirit with an obscenely high might score. Why so high? I need it to be able to resist magic besides just Wards, I need it to have Penetration power, and I need it to have enough "juice" (might points) to last through the encounter. And, unless I just want to kill everyone and say "thanks for a great game, you are now all dead", I need the players to be able to protect themselves with a Ward and escape to safety.
So again, I suppose at the end of the day it is about power level and playing style. But I do indeed use a compromise rule. Generic Wards do need to penetrate. But if a Ward matches both Realm and Form of a creature with Might, such as a ReAn Ward against Magical Beasts versus a gryphon, then my rule is that you do not have to subtract level from casting total, as if the subject had the Weak Magic Resistance Flaw, with the specific circumstance being the Ward matching Realm & Form. For Wards against mundane items (without might), I grant a Soak bonus. Just as ReIg25 Ward against Heat & Flames grants a +15 soak against fire, a ReTe25 Ward against Weapons grants a +15 soak against swords and axes.
Then let me be blunt, my friend. Yes you are a bit, but at the same time I doesn't feel concerned. That's because we don't "use D&D style encounters" as you are saying. I do not understand how I let you think that.
You are using the "Did you stop beating your wife" argument.
Check this: fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html
I think that's why the "I realize I may sound condescending". (no "harm" done or intended =)
I know this rule and I think it's contradict the Core rules found in ArM5. I mean the rules on wards in HoH:S should be errataed because they contradict the core rules.
As a reknown flambeau specialist, Mark, (or any other who care to answer..) don't you think that you should be able to use an AC when casting a Pillum of Fire ?
But the target of a PoF is the fire created, no ?
I think the core rules can only be understood with two meanings for the word "target".
There is Target, that can be Personnal, Touch, Voice, Sight or AC.
But there is also the target (of a spell). In this last case, it's the one that the casted intend to affect with the spell effect.
Now, you really can only interpret the rules on Arcane connection (p. 84) with the AC needing to be connected to the target (of a spell).
The Target of a ward is Circle : so you can't have a tile of your floor to boost penetration. I agree here.
But you can boost penetration of a ward with having an AC to the target (of a spell). For exemple, some hair.
Otherwise - poor flambeau! - you can't use AC with PoF !
Nice!
That would be a poor flambeau (or any other combat magus, that is) for sure! 
It is still valid that if you can move around the forest totally safe it makes for a very different atmosphere than if you jump in terror at every small branch that moves around you
The point about the difference in power levels seen in your saga and those of Mark and mine (for example) still stand, though as well as the Perdo Vim beating PeVi specialists in kicking creature butt argument.
Cheers,
Xavi
I do have to make one comment to put wards in perspective for not needing to penetrate (I still haven't figured out what the abbrev RAW stands for).
We encountered faeries with magic might 20, they had power that cost 4 pts of might. PEnetration is 0, this means any magic resistance blocks it.
Say the power only cost 3 pts, this means any magus or the order with parma 1 will resist it since penetration is only 5.
Make the power cost 2 pts and parma 2 or parma 1 with right specialty or 5 in the corresponding art and it is resisted.
This is what you have to take into account. Your average magus can resist most powers from a power 20 faerie so a level 20 ward being an actual spell with finite limits and considering it is purely defensive is more than reasonable to not require penetration.
There are also two types of wards: the immoble circular wards that were from an ex misc tradition incorporated into the magic theory (target circle) and personal that can move with person. Perhaps the two should be different but that breaks down the concept of the unified magic theory of Bonisagus.
Rules As Written, meaning unmodified Ars Magica without any House Rule interpretation
I admire blunt, and I am painfully aware of what a jerk I am, so i thank you for your forbearance
LOL, that argument works wonders my friend! But anyway, I meant it more as a smarmy comment than anything else. It is the concept that your game can "break" that I am pointing out. For me, and this may be just me, the game cannot break as long as people keep playing. The purpose of the game is continued play. I may have goals and adventures, but if the players circumvent my challenges or care not for my goals, it matters not. As long as they keep playing. Magi naturally find their own level of challenge. So Xavi doesn't like my Faerie forest and decides to set fire to the whole thing (bad Xavi!). There goes my Faerie adventure. But Xavi won't be settled with just that. He will have his own goals, and instead of me setting up the situation to see how his character reacts, I am willing and able to let Xavi do whatever and I will react to him. It plaes the storytelling job on the player, yes, but I don't let on that I am making things up as we go along. He will get the perception that I planned everything, and actually I am more like a player reacting to the deeds and desires of the character (who becomes more akin to a storyguide without realizing it).
Clever debate tactic! I admire your style! You do make an excellent point here about Target, and what constitutes a Target. But the core RAW does go at length to explain that the subject warded against is not the Target.
And actually, I have not yet needed the use of an Arcane Connection for Penetration. I designed my latest (and most favorite) character right after last years Ward debate, and I purposefully designed him to Penetrate 20+ resistance right from Gauntlet, or as high as 35+ if he spends Fatigue & Confidence! Sooner or later I will need an AC, it just hasn't come up yet. Good point made though. Kudos!
Cannot be hurt? What about ward versus punch? vs kick? vs big honking rock smashed against your head?
The good old grapple and mass of bodies attack works here. I remember a long time ago a D&D game where we came up against a wererat and had no silver weapons. The group grappled him, held him down and the coup d'grace eventually finished him off.
Drowning works too. Sure if you get good enough, you can ward yourself agaisnt everything but you have now spent all your time warding that you can't do anything else and you have had to get a lot of arts very high to get such warding.
HEY!! I would freeze your damn forest, not burn it. Burning is for styleless people
The style of "this is a problem, let's see how you solve it" is how most people that play narrative Ars tend to play. The donkey-carrot directed style of dungeon crawling has not been seen in quite some time. I suppose that even DnD moved away from it (I might be awfully wrong here since I have not read anything DnD in 15 more years).
Woops! metting!
Posting later
Hum... By the raw, might 40 critters are far from guards, they are among the more powerfull creatures you'll encounter.
For exemple, Polymathes (in RoP: Magic), described as "Very ancient and magically potent, has a might of 41. Forcas, a freaking Duke of Hell, the second more potent Infernal Might behind Adramelech (might 50) has Might 40. Would you expect a Duke of Hell to be a simple guard?
If you amp up the might of your critters, fine, but then, you shouldn't be surprised to have some difficulties with them, especially with Wards. As said before, power level 
However, my point of view with this is that, although wards needing to penetrate is a good thing, system-wise (no strange exceptions), a fixed level would be better, probably at level 15 (summon a spirit).
Yup, same pow (and house rule) here.
Indeed fixer, the confusion seems to stem from the fact that it has an open starting magnitude range, to be able to affect higher might creatures, but then it also has to penetrate, which effectively requires a much higher casting total.
Spell guidelines for wards with a set base magnitude sounds like a good fix. Haha... pun not intended but... 
