Aegis Breakthrough Research - viable?

Hi all,
Been reading HoH: Societates and the Columbae section which got me thinking of an adaption (more so than an advancement) of The Aegis. This relies on Minor Hermetic Virtue Ring/Circle Magic (page 113) .

Reinvent The Aegis with Range: Touch Duration: Ring, Target: Circle. Making use of the part of the virtue

This would be permanent without a ritual as long as the marks are not damaged - which is actually very easy. So, we develop it a little further. By expanding it to a ritual , the marks become invisible, but still clearly visible to those with the Second Sight (so still vulnerable, to promote tension in stories), but protected enough to be worthwhile.

If anyone has seen the TV production of Dresden Files, I'm thinking of the scene where he shows off his warding to Murphy. Or some of the Wards shown off in Supernatural.

What are peoples thoughts? It would mean you wouldn't need a yearly ritual, so would potentially reduce vis costs. Provides opportunities to have the Aegis work on ship based covenants, those in cities etc. Also provides tension as mundanes with supernatural virtues (aka Second Sight) aren't warded by Hermetic nor Columbae magic, so rival grogs ( or perhaps tainted mundanes) could undermine the protection of the covenant, which I think is another story opportunity.

Kal

EDIT: And now having read the introduction text for the Columbae, I see this concept was probably realised by the writers originally as they have do address this sort of idea....oh well, would still think it would be a fun to try, though with that flavor text, it would have to a major breakthrough :frowning:

Hi!

Columbae Warding can ward against humans (which includes Magi/regular humans with Supernatural abilities/etc), however, base target number is 30, so very, very difficult with a single accelerated ability, and getting good Penetration with that, not gonna happen:

However, with Hermetic magic, a Rego Corpus expert with a focus on wards and some Penetration? More doable,

Wasn't there a errata that it is 30 for normal hermetic magic also? Still it is easier with Art then with an ability to get penetration.

Hi!

Had not read that, and did not find it just now in the Errata for Core or for Societates. Tales of Power has such a ward in a Verditius's magic armor, still Base 15.

The base is 15 but with touch ring circle, it's 30 in both cases at those parameters. However hermetic magic can do a pers conc ward, which would only be 20. Columbae cannot.
See HOH S p114.

The problem with an aegeis with duration ring is that if any magical entity or thing leaves or enters the ring then the spell collapses. When that ring is your covenant this is likely a shorter period than a moon, especially if magi count as magical beings, which for an AotH I believe they would.

Also consider the last paragraph of AotH description on the corebook:

At the very least that paragraph says that you would need years of lucky research to get a Ring/Circle version, and that you would need some extra magnitudes and to incorporate that missing Perdo requisite. But for me it reads that the spell is unique and you don't get to mess with it: think that if it were possible by now probably some Bonisagus would had come with a non ritual, R: Per version, and magi would be walking around with an aegis on the top of their Parma.

We're talking about Breakthrough research (as explained in HoH:TL). You get to mess with it if you can accumulate the breakthrough points.

It's true that canonically, nobody but Bonisagus and Notatus has managed to mess with the Parma yet. To a proper magus Bonisagus, that's not a barrier, that's a challenge, and PCs have chased after much more difficult breakthroughs than that.

And I was talkimg about how Aegis already is and overpowered, extremely effective spell and how such an upgrade would unbalance the whole setting. There has been generations and generations of Bonisagi since Notatus that probably tríed and failed. I guess just none of them were proper.

No more overpowered and unworkable than other breakthroughs printed in canon, particularly in Ancient Magic.

Notice that Aegis is R: Touch, D: Year, T: Boundary, so allowing changes in parameters would mean things like this:

Absurdly Overpowered Magus Personal Aegis
ReVi 15, R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
You walk around with the equivalent of a lelel 50 Aegis; you are warded against all creatures of any Realm with Might up to 50, and spells and powers, including In spells not blocked by Parma, must have penetration higuer than 50 to affect you.

Now tell me that isn’t overpowered!

It's also not the result you can expect if you integrate the Aegis into Hermetic theory:

That indicates that the Aegis is a fluke to begin with, and Parma Magica As A Spell would require a Perdo requisite (I'm skeptical on this, mind you) and be far less powerful - probably base-level powerful.

I don't think a Target Individual version would need a Perdo requisite, if the Aegis were researched for it. The Perdo requisite would represent the penalty that casters take inside the Aegis without a token. An Individual version has no need of this.

But I personally think that separate Breakthroughs would be required for making the R/D/T adjustable and making an Individual version that didn't need a Perdo requisite.

Doesn't the Aegis fall under the warding guidelines that require a ward to Penetrate the Might of any creature it needs to protect against? That would mean you'd need a Penetration total of 50 to get the full effect. Not that it really means much when you could make a ReVi 1 version that provides 20 resistance.

Hey, you are preaching to the choir, I already quoted that above, the whole paragraph, to point that messing with Aegis is problematic.

Well, a R: Personal variation could get rid of it, but until that point that requisite should be necessary (and desirable), if you really want to replace Aegis with R: Circle or T: Structure cheaper versions.

That was what I was thinking; after my denial phase I entered the "how would it work?" phase and that was the first thing I would suggest: to make each of the parameters not fixed you would need a separate Major Breakthrough. Then probably for each extra step in the parameters you would need a Minor Breakthrough, so to get from the R: Touch, D: Year, T: Bound canon to the T: Per, D: Sun, R: Ind version would require 3 Major ones (and you could change it to R: Per, D: Moon and T: Structure) and 4 Minor Breakthroughs (1 to lower to D: Sun and 3 to get to T: Ind). To get to the vis efficient R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle you would only need 2 Major and the 4 minor, which seems the goal of a lifetime or of a Bonisagi dedicated lineage.

But there would be more: besides the Perdo requisite for all non R: Per version, probably the resulting spell would always require to be a Ritual (if only because it's a truly powerful spell, and that would get rid of the problem of magi walking around all the time with a R: Per D: Sun Aegis) and Realm aligned, as all other Vi spells are, so you would actually require 4 separate spells to get to the equivalent of an Aegis. So indefinite duration versions with D: Ring, T: Circle versions could be cheaper in vis in the long run, but probably require a lot more when first casted.

And then there is the problem of the Base Level effect... more on that later.

As already does Aegis; to get a 50 level functional Aegis you need a casting score of 100 to get the 50 penetration anyway.

And about the ReVi 1 spell, pretty much all games I had played ended ruling (most of the times because Tytali exploiting rules, by the way) that negative spell base levels were forbidden, so the minimum base to get my R: Per D: Sun T: Ind version would need to be 1 +2 (sun), so level 3. Still, pretty overpowered, as it would work as a personal, mobile level 30 Aegis (which would just ruin the purpose of Parma, as you could get the equivalent of a Parma score 6 with a level 3 spell). Which also would mean that the absolute minimum Aegis ritual would require it to be level 30 to avoid entering the negative base level nightmare (base 1, +1 Touch, +4 Year, +4 Bound).

And a final consideration; Jabir pointed me overpowered breakthroughs in Ancient Magic: if I recall correctly, all of these ended with a section about the consequences these integrations would imply to the Order and the setting, and this, also, would have quite hard implications. In particular, a single 3 level spell would pretty much simulate a Parma Magica score of 6, and that would lead to an scenario were Parma is first learn just to get rid of the Gift penalties among magi (who would bother to raise it over 1, after these breakthroughs?), and with the clear danger of just being drop of the Hermetic Magi training, which would bring magi going back to the pre-Bonisagus' scenario, distrusting of each other, isolated and hostile. Which would problably be a pretty good reason to make the Tenentes Occultorum Trianomae pay a quite worried visit to our intrepid Bonisagus researcher sooner than later.

Which could lead to a pretty good political, potentially paradigm-shattering story and suggest another one: what if, in fact, this already happened? What if some Bonisagi since Notatus already discovered how to change Aegis parameters, and that knowledge is warded in the safest vault of do-not-touch things (packed between the "Name, location and discoveries found in the Nameless Covenant" and the "original Duresca Scrolls investigation" files) of the Tenentes Occultorum?

Don't you love threads that end suggesting adventures?