Aiming vs Targetting

A question has come up in our saga.. more of a disagreement really ^^

It basically comes up over targetted spells over aimed ones. I go by the rules on pg 86, under Aiming, that says, if a spell -isn't- aimed.. it will -always- hit the target (unless it doesn't penetrate or is fast countered obviously)

The problem comes with situations like.. when a magus fast casts a complete iron sphere around themselves.. what happens to a targetted spell that's going to hit them now?.. does it just blast through the sphere?

My Troupe leader thinks magic will just splat against the sphere or something.. whereas I think it will ALWAYS hit the target unless it fails to penetrate.. and nothing can stop it, whether it has to phase through a barrier or just blast through it..

The next situation, which is the one that's actually come up in game.. a small passageway underground.. grogs are blocking it against some horrible ooze monster.. I fire a Mu(Re)Te spell, which to sum up, fires a blob of liquid stone at something, and then encases it, trapped it inside.
This isn't an aimed spell, so it must penetrate resistance, which it can do of course. Now.. my troupe leader thinks it would hit the grogs in the way.. whereas I see it more as magic being quite capable of just flying over their heads or past them to strike it's proper target.

Anyway.. just curious how people would solve situations like this.. as it's not 100% clear and such

I think that a better example is a mage standing on one side of a clear glass wall, casting at something on the other side (there's no way for the spell to go around)

For the sake of argument, assume the spell is not powerful enough to go straight through the wall, and explicitly mentions it creates something near the magi, which travels to the target. Sphere of Abysmal Flames and Pilum of Fire are good examples for that.

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That's not a better example.. heh, it can always just arc -over- the wall.. make it a glass sphere ^^

Which is why I -specified- there's no way for the spell to go around.

It's a wall from floor to ceiling!

Must I present 3d models with my examples?! I will, you know, if I have to :slight_smile:

Hehe.. aaaaaaah :wink:

I've read somewhere that in the case of BoAF at least, the fireball is really just a cosmetic effect, that the flames are really created directly on the target. According to this, yes, the magus in his iron sphere would still get blasted... though there'll be the small problem of sensing him.

Tell him to forego the temptation to make magic overly material. Or to think of it in modern physics.

If the base assumption is satisfied - that the caster can sense the target (by sense or an AC) and the target is within range of the particular spell - then the magic hits. The description of Abysmal Balls flying, or darts of earth etc, is cosmetic fluff only - it is beautifull but cosmetic only. With Creo magic you might as well create where the intended target is. Within reason, you can always descripe the spell effect finding a way around to the intended target, or metaphysical passing through intervening barriers (as long as the two base assumptions are fine).

Alternatively any mundane force attacking a magus will start to "insulate" themselves - maybe even shoving up in a giant woodensphere on wheels - could even be in the shape of a giant horse... or a rabbit. :laughing:

On a more serious note, if he insists then you should make HR to fit it. One could be to return to earlier editions-like solutions of having to target all spells. In that case enjoy the calculations.

Interesting question and one I've thought about too. I tend to invoke the grand rule of "double standards".

Mundane targets have no chance. That's just their tough luck for being mundane.

But wizardly type people/things may be able to protect themselves. Imagine I send a Pilum of Fire hurtling towards you. As a Terram specialist you decide to fast-cast a sheet of stones that explode out from the ground disrupting the fire and saving you from a toasting. I'd buy that. Firstly, it's within the rules and secondly, it's cool.

I'd even allow a magus to use a Corpus fast cast to shift himself out of the line of the spell, again because it fits with fast-cast defence and, again, looks cool.

I imagine all those darty type spells (pilum, crystal dart etc) as perhaps having the ability to swerve/seek/follow to a limited degree. So mundanes just don't have the ability to get out of the way or react quickly enough (though I do like the idea of a grog barging a table up and ducking down just as the magus casts the pilum; flames biting and rending at the wood while the grog is safe...) while magi/Might-ed beasts may.

But what if they go prepared with their, ahem, "balls of steel"? You know, I think the spells as written would actually bounce off. Their descriptions usually show the effect starting at the magus and travelling to the target. There's no reason that the damaging effect couldn't just affect the target with no travelling (as Abysmal Flame implies it does) but pilum and dart in particular clearly state that they travel.

Two common spell discriptions...


R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
A ball of flame shoots from your hand to strike a single target, doing +30 damage.
Marius of Tremere's version of the spell causes the ball to make a loud bang when it hits the target. His sigil is a gaudiness in his spells.
(Base 25, +2 Voice; the ball appearing to shoot from your hand is a cosmetic effect)


R: Voice, D: Diam, T: Ind
Requisites: Rego
The target is swathed in fire, and takes +5 damage every round while the spell is in effect. That is, the damage must be rolled against Soak twenty times during the spell. The Rego requisite ensures that the fire does not spread.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +1 Diam, +1 Rego requisite)

What it really comes to is sensing the target.

In the case of the ball of iron you do not know if the magi teleported away and the ball is a side effect or from weird magic. also your completely enclosed, the BoF as described has no chance of hitting. So next round if the ball is still there try a spell that creates fire at the point such as a slightly modified Coat of Flame. You still cant see inside the ball so a targeting roll is needed, if your trying to fill the entire ball with flame it would be a low difficulty (magi inside cant dodge easily)

Hiding in a glass ball?
This screams house rule to decide if the clear glass which can not be seen has any effect. Again i'd go with the spell discription, if it says shoots from the magi to target then it would hit the glass, if described as creating damage at a point then the magi trying to hide is hit. Good reason to create PoF, BoF spells that create the fire on the target, also lets you toast the annoying townsfolk with out drawing attention by a having a stream of fire streak from you :smiling_imp: to other witness "did you see that he just bust into flames! must have been smote by god"

Or even more so.
Why wouldn't a Pillum of Fire act like an IR-guided rocket? Only, it's designated as a target by you sensing it.
If it has to change course, well, I picture it like some ki blasts in anime. If I remember correctly, DBZ has some good exemples of it.

Btw, I agree with you on all other points. Even if the ball of flame travelling is just a cosmetic effect, this means it is a free choice, to make the spell look cool, but it is there nonetheless.

I sort of see Ball of Abysmal Flame as just creating balls of fire along a line, like frames in an animation. When it strikes its target it 'stops' long enough to deal fire damage, then vanishes. Anything caught in the way before that might just be singed, since it's just a cosmetic effect - BoAF wasn't designed to actually deal damage in a line.

What this does mean is that, in my games, if you can sense someone through a barrier, the BoAF will pass through it to strike them as if it were immaterial.

Similar effects may apply to other Creo spells that are 'shot' at targets without a rego effect.

Edit: This also suggests an idea to me. A Creo(Rego) Ignem version, perhaps +1 magnitude, that is actually fired in the sense we're all imagining, and hits like a gust of wind (only made of fire) strong enough to knock someone off their feet. I might even let a spell like that do some lesser 'splash' damage to nearby things as the fire impacts its target and scatters before the spell ends.

Edit #2: Yes, I realize this could alternately be a Creo Ignem(Auram) effect. I think it works either way; either you're projecting the fire forcefully, or you make wind out of fire that projects itself. It's another case of more than one way to do the same thing in hermetic magic.

Salvete, sodales. I know this topic is really old, but I have found some information that appears to be really important for this discussion and may give a better closure to it, after all. And, of course, it may also help anyone still confused with this, as I was when I first encountered this topic recently.

There is, in HoH: Societates, p. 21, a text on the chart named "Dimicatio in Detail" that states the following:

If you wish to play through a dimicatio, use the normal combat rules. Contestants start at Voice range from one another. The contest begins at the sound of a bell or other signal. Both competitors roll Initiative and the winner casts the first offensive spell. The defender must then fast-cast a defense. Rules for fast-cast defense are on page 83 of ArM5.
The storyguide must apply some judgment in deciding whether a particular Form and Technique combination is effective as a defense against a particular spell, keeping in mind the rule of thumb that a fast-cast defense of one-half the level of the incoming spell is usually sufficient. For example, if one magus casts Ball of Abysmal Flame (CrIg 35), his opponent might defend using Creo Aquam (to quench the fire), Rego Ignem (to deflect the fireball), or even Creo Herbam (to create a wooden shield). Perdo Vim defenses can work, but they need to satisfy the normal rules for dispelling magic (ArM5, page 160). This becomes difficult if the defender fails to identify the Form.
If the defense succeeds, the defender may cast an offensive spell on his own turn in the Initiative order. The cycle repeats according to the normal combat sequence. The rules of the contest allow magi to use vis if they wish. (emphasis mine)

Although the context of this is obviously specific - i. e. dimicatio -, the statement is clearly general, because it's just talking about fast-cast defense. If you can defend yourself with a fast-casted wooden shield, I think you can do the same with a rock wall or an iron sphere. BoAF - or any other spell that travels - will not simply pass through any obstacle as if the obstacle was immaterial. In that sense, @Agnar appears to be correct in their way of thinking.

That was it. Hope it was worth bringing this back from the dead. :face_with_spiral_eyes:


Im pretty much in agreement here. The always hitting thing sounds similar to DnD 5e's magic missile. It auto-targets the opponent, flying and swerving to hit them. If you fast-cast a defense in the way (such as throwing up a glass wall directly in the path), then the spell slams into it before it can turn or maneuver (a spell with D:Concentration and a Rego technique/requisite may be able to pull out and continue moving) and is countered. If you had the glass wall in the way BEFORE the spell was targeting you, there is no reason the magi couldn't just fire the spell and have it manifest the fireball on the far side before continuing on towards you.

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First Notes

At first, I advise reading the text-boxes of HoH: Societates, p. 30 (Indirect Spells from ArM5) and p. 35 (Projectiles and Rego Magic).
My purpose here is to discuss a few points involving your question. If you want the fast-answer, go to the Conclusion section, at the end.

Built-in parameters

At first, look at our mantra:

"If a spell is resisted (...) it need not be aimed. If it is not resisted, it must be aimed."(ArM5-Core Rules, p. 86)

Let's stick with the words "need" and "must".

  • A spell built in a way it would be resisted by Magic Resistance can freely chose to ignore the Aim Roll, since it is not needed.
  • A spell built in a way that would NOT be resisted that way requires an Aim Roll.

The Art of Rego

Now, we need to talk about our friend Rego:

"A spell that has a continuing effect remains in effect even if the caster moves out of range. A spell that allows the caster to control the effect only permits that control as long as the caster is within range. However, it does not expire if the caster moves out of range, and he may control it again if he moves back into range." (ArM5-Core Rules, p. 111: "Ranges")

That said, a Rego spell (including Rego Requisites) with R: Touch can give magi the control over the target as long as it is touching it, and the behavior of the Form follows the influence given for the Duration, even if the magus is not touching it anymore. The "influence" can be an order, for example, in the case of ReMe spells, or, in case of Rego + Elemental Form (e.g.), this is the movement itself, the "kinetic/potential energy" (not in these words for Mythic Europe, but you should recognize it this way).

That means a magus conjuring a Rego Terram spell of R: Touch - D: Momentary (let's keep things solid, for now) can't control the thing beyond their own hands, but the thing follows a movement suggested at the moment of conjuration (that means, it triggers an Aim roll) OR the previous suggestion in the spell description ("always hit the target"), provides the target is within the range of the spell.

Remember that a spell (and a spellcaster) can't exert control further than its range, but it DOES make effect for the duration, and that means magical created things are magical for the duration. If you create a magical rock with R: Touch D: Diameter CrTe and then uses aimed ReTe to throw it, it is Aimed and needs to penetrate, provided the magical nature of the Individual target.

As long as the "auto-hit" is a free choice, not a needed one, a spell can be built to both need an Aim Roll AND overcome Magic Resistance. But what is the advantage of it?

Let''s look at this Mu(Re)Te 10 formulaic spell:

R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind Req: Rego
The spell transforms a stone into a 10-inch crystal dart that rises from the ground at your feet, floats into the air, and speeds off like an arrow at a target that is within Voice range. It does +5 damage (because of the sharp edges of the crystal as much as its speed), and always hits its target, although it must penetrate Magic Resistance to have any real effect." (ArM5- Core Rules, p. 154 + Errata on underlined italic)

The need to overcome Magic Resistance comes from the nature of the thing controlled: a crystal made by magic is a magic thing. The Crystal Dart can be "created" (it is, actually, stone transformed into crystal) at any point within range, and this spell is built in a way the target (the thing controlled: the dart) turns into a magical thing and, then, "suggested" by the spell itself to "hit the target".

Since it is in the description of the spell, you can't choose to make an Aim Roll: it is built to guide the Crystal to the target all the way (otherwise, it would trigger an Aim Roll), but you can guide the projectile in an intelligent way for the duration (for a moment, in this case), as long as the final objective is the same: hitting the target defined at the instant of the casting. The healthiest and more consistent interpretation for the "Momentary" duration is less than a turn, but usually more or equivalent to a glimpse.

Guiding something with pure magical interaction "all the way" usually don't use Finesse Rolls (I say "usually" because I don't know any exception, but if it exists, I won't take this responsibility).
However, you should consider the following guideline of the Limit of Arcane Connections

"Hermetic magic cannot affect an unsensed target without an Arcane Connection."(Arm5- Core Rules, p.80)

That means you should both be in range of the effect AND perceive the projectile.

Note: you can take another example on Piercing Shaft of Wood, a Mu(Re)He 10. (ArM5 - Core Rules, p. 137)

A Note on Arcane Connections to your spells

"Oh so I don't have an Arcane Connection to my own spells?" Well, I'm not 100% sure, but the Arcane Connections table on corebook (p. 84) mentions enchanted devices and mundane crafts.

Further, in a supplement that I can't remember, by the same rules, your Laboratory Texts and other opus are arcane connections to you (that's obvious since they're as mundane as ink and parchment can be, but I didn't realized that a magus should be so carefull before showing them to the world), for the appropriate duration.

If there are nothing stating that you have any Arcane Connections to your spells, I'll give you a reference from this forum:

"A hair from my head was once part of me, so it is an Arcane Connection to me because of the Law of Contagion. I was never part of the hair that came from my head, so by that same Law I am not an Arcane Connection to it." (From here)

That said, if the minor is part of the great, but not the opposite, IN THE BEST CASES the effects are A.C. to the caster, but we won't stick with it. Stay with the opposite: you don't have the Arcane Connection to your effect, so, you need to perceive. Maybe I'm going too far with it, but I couldn't find a clear answer by "ctrl + F" the rulebook, clear my mind if you find something in favor or against this.

How do I controll my effect, since I am both in range and perceiving them?

For the final target changes, we need to consider two situations:

  • We consider that the description of the spell requires a definition of the final target before or at the casting instant, as well as the stone that will be target to transform into our Crystal. In this case, we can't change the final target, but can use the moment to guide the projectile in an intelligent way around a barrier. This is best for Sagas and groups that like the "I have 20 variations of Crystal Dart, one for each day of the week" style, encouraging players to invent spells and see Hermetic Magic as an inflexible (or, in the best, stone-hard) way of magic.
  • We consider the opposite: by default, you should state the base Target parameter of the spell, and the decisions proposed by the description should be a little flexible, so we can choose to change the final targe7t. This is the best for a protagonistic vision of formulaic magic, where the stone-hard part of the spell are the general concept and the built-in parameters of the spell (Base; R; D; T).
  • We consider that both cases exist, and there are formulaic spells that states the final target can't change. In the lack of clearness, we assume what is most flexible and/or better for the magus. The Crystal Dart is a case of lack of clearness. This stimulates protagonism AND allows more specific descriptions for spells. There's not much benefit, at first, for being more specific thar you need to be, but in most cases, this is a cool narrative feature.

Teleporting Projectile?

That said, Rego spells can teleport things, so it should not be that hard to ignore the barrier and set the dart directly to the face of your opponent, either using the ReTe guideline "Level 3: Control or move dirt in a very unusual fashion" or an analogy for the ReCo guidelines that transport the target using a set distance parameter (5 paces is Level 10, 50 paces is level 15, and so on). I would go with the second to be a safe bet. That would pass through most static barriers if you can perceive your final target, but most of these barrier ideas seems to be opaque, like metal globes. Arcane Connections can still be used for targeting someone in the range of the spell: if it is voice, all you have to do to reach the target is be heard - or, at least, the sound of your voice should "touch" the target, and the arcane connection should act to guide the effect to your opponent, even if the spell does not have "Arcane Connection" in range. However, you do need the arcane connection range if any other method could reach the target.

The "is ice clear enough?" question can be answered by the description of the Bridge of Frost - ReAq 30. It can depend upon caster's sigil, or decided at the casting as a cosmetic minor change, as long as I am aware of.

"In Cralian of Tremere’s version of this spell, the frost is so crystal clear that it can
hardly be seen. All of his spells are very subtle" (ArM5 - Core Rules, p.124)

A Note on Touch Rego

This is a Creo Auram 30 spell:

R: Touch, D: Conc, T: Ind
Req: Rego
Generates a massive gust of air around you that supports and pushes you along through the air at speeds up to 40 miles per hour. Hovering in place is difficult, and requires a Finesse roll against an Ease Factor of 9 per round. It is dangerous for extended travel, because if you lose concentration, you are likely to sustain serious injuries (+15 damage, on average, although it may be more if the magus was very high up)." (ArM5 - Core Rules, p. 126)

We can notice, in this example, that you can still controll the effect as long as you are touching those winds (Range Touch) and concentrate (Duration Concentration). Of course, you should sense the gust, and we are considering that, since you're touching it, you're ok. We should consider thar "I know why I'm flying" is enough for the perception of the effect, otherwise a PeIm spell could destroy this touch sensation and make you lose control over your spell, unless you make it a stinky gust of air in the casting (so the smelling sense should be destroyed too for this to happen), or have another idea for it.

Note that PeIm spells are good options to hide the effects of enemies' spells and make them lose control of it. Or I'm completely wrong about it and you should ignore this :slight_smile:
If the Range was higher, like Voice, you could control the gust at distance, maybe even make someone fly as long as you concentrate and can perceive them.

The Art of Creo

There's not much to say about the obvious: Creo spells create things in a place within range. They don't usualy need any projectile. If you make a Creo spell work with a projectile, you should consider, obviously, the thing is a magic creation and needs to penetrate. It does not need an Aim roll, BUT with a Rego requisite you can both create and throw a stone. That can be Range Touch and then you use Rego to suggest the movement and throw the stone with an Aim Roll. Still a magic thing = needs to penetrate. The advantage of it is that... I honestly don't know, but isn't throwing fireballs cooler than just making things explode at voice range?

Ball of Abysmal Flame (CrIg 35) is voice range, but considers the projectile a cosmetic feature, so there's no Rego requisite. Like other offensive Creo spells, it needs to penetrate. Again, it's a magically created thing.

However, Creo alone don't give magi control over the thing. The ball follows to the target, and any surprise built in the way can stop the ball from hitting the target, right? Maybe. Mechanically, the cosmetic projectile feature should not make the spell less powerful. Ball of Abysmal Flame could be designed to just make the target explode. Why it was built in this way? A Magical Focus on Projectiles that the inventor wanted to keep? Well, that's not much relevant, but it is an idea. Both the personal magical preferences of the inventors and their casting sigils often fills the spells with features that makes them a bit less powerful or versatile as they could be, and I think this is healthy to the game. That said, I would stick with the option that the spell can be stopped.

See the CrIg 25 that follows:

R: Voice, D: Diam, T: Ind
Req: Rego
The target is swathed in fire, and takes +5 damage every round while the spell is in effect. That is, the damage must be rolled against Soak twenty times during the spell.
The Rego requisite ensures that the fire does not spread.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, +1 Diam, +1 Rego requisite)" (ArM5 - Core Rules, p. 140)

In this case, we need a Rego requisite to stop the thing created to behave naturally. Rego needed to be added, because only Rego can make a thing behave in unnatural ways. However, we see that we do not need to keep concentration, since the suggestion "do not spread!" is built in the spell description. We can't use this spell to spread fire. That is not written, but this is the suggestion, and the spell does not allow the use of Aim Rolls or other Finesse uses to alter it. That said, it can be invented again with Aim rolls to provide more controll over the fire: the rego requisite is already there, but your group could consider that the requisite of a static suggestion is much less powerful than a flexible one, and add one more magnitude to the level - beyond the base +1 mag. for the requisite. (p. 115)

What House Flambeau has to say about it?

Let's call in the specialists.

"Only specially designed Rego spells can throw projectiles this way - the spell’s description must explicitly state that it can throw projectiles (these spells are higher magnitude than generic Rego spells). Spells that throw a projectile release control of it immediately after launching it" (HoH: Societates, p. 35)

This part is referring to one of the three techniques on Rego Aim magic: the case that I referred to "suggest the movement". The other two consist in guiding the projectile "all the way", and levitating the things above the target and leave the job to the gravity to finish.

So, the thing is that the use of Finesse to exert control over the Individual target (e.g.) is a complex thing, and that's why Ball of Abysmal Flame can't automatically hit the target like The Crystal Dart. So, the Rego requisite for make the "auto-hit the target" suggestion costs one magnitude on non-Rego spells. Creo and Muto examples here need to penetrate.

Pure Rego spells can hurl stones with Aim Rolls in a way that the caster loses control over the thing and trust the physics (basically what means an Aim Roll).

A lot of Rego Aim spells and guidelines are presented on HoH: Societates - House Flambeau.

The Fast Casting Option

So, we are assuming a successful Fast Cast roll for our opponent, right? Based on Quickness. If succeeded, it means the opponent reacts faster than the effect.
We are also providing that our opponent could determine the Form and think on a reasonable appropriate spell, in time.

"In general, a fast-cast defense with half the level of the attacking spell is enough to protect the maga herself or one other individual." (ArM5 - Core Rules, p. 83)

There's not much doubt now. Since Rego considers that:

1. The caster is concentrating to exert control over the projectile: The Quickness of the attacker was overcome by the Fast Casting roll of the defense, so the caster is not ''fast enough'' to exert control in time.
2. The spell has built-in ways to determine the behavior of the thing ("hit the target"): As Ball of Abysmal Flame is created with the same suggestion "hit the target" and could be barred by surprises, this option is also overcome by the Fast Casting roll of the defense.

While we are accepting that our opponent was fast enough, we just need to think about the guideline given by the rules: a fast-cast defense just need half the level of the attack to be sufficient. Of course this need to make some sense, like a fine globe of glass protects none from a big stone ball, even if the caster of the globe spent a lot of magnitudes on the duration and rises its levels. My final advice is to stick with the base level on doubt, but remember to keep your life simple - it is obvious that a wall of stone can stop fire, so you can just compare the levels. Remember that the level of the spell also represent the time that the maga spent studying, the experience on the arts and everything that involves acquiring sufficient casting totals to even fast-cast this, and all of that should be awarded.

Also consider the damage that the barrier would take, even if enough. The success on Fast-Casting, determining the Form, choosing an appropriate counter-spell and having sufficient levels to stop the attack should protect the maga, but maybe not the thing she just created.

And, finally:

"Fast-cast defenses against mundane threats work if the level of the spell is high
enough to neutralize the threat." (ArM5-Core Rules, p. 83)

Stick with this when Rego Aiming, cause the thing that arrives at the maga is a mundane moving thing.

Conclusion of the Metal Dome

For this conclusion, remember the points discussed:

  • The Rego-Requisite spells that suggest "auto-hits" expects that the magus is perceiving his target AND final target - or else, Rego could not be used since 1) the magus must perceive his effect; 2) we need arcane connections to use Hermetic magic to affect something we can't perceive, and a Magus, at this moment, does not have one with his spells.
  • Can you effectively perceive your final target AND the Indiviual target controlled by the spell (e.g. The Crystal Dart) to direct the projectile inside the dome? Rego counts with both of them, unless you have an Arcane Connection to the final target: in this case, you just need to see the stone to Muto-Rego it. Both need to be in range, since a spell can't exert control beyond the range.
  • If the Crystal Dart wasn't Voice Range, and was Touch Range instead, it would be a Muto-Rego Aim spell that needs to penetrate. It could be aimed into the Metal Dome, yes.
  • Would it have enough damage to pierce mountains just to hit the target of an Arcane Connection (in the case of Range Arcane Connection, of course)? Is it really reasonable just for keeping the "always hit" line? If the damage is important, the barrier should be considered.
  • If a maga can see a hole in the dome (or make one with PeTe), big enough for a projectile she is planning to make AND to perceive the final target, they can cast the spell through it, since the final static built-in suggestion "hit the target" benefits by this new suggestion. Intellego spells could also be used for detections, like an InCo treating the Metal Sphere as Room target. This considers a straight and linear movement of the projectile, since natural movements are easier to reproduce with Rego magic. The base level of Rego Terram for controll the thing in a very unnatural fashion is just level 3, so I can think it works with the base 1 magnitude requisite of the Crystal Dart.
  • One way or another, you mentioned in the Metal Sphere example that it was a fast-cast. See "The Fast Casting Options" above: the fast-cast defense success also depends on spell level.

Conclusion of the Stone Blob

  • Does Coat of Flame still prevents the spread of the fire when the magus gets out of the voice range? Yes, it is a static suggestion. Is "auto-hit" a built-in static suggestion?
  • Well, bellow the Coat of Flame quote, we come with an answer: a static suggestion is a +1 magnitude, and a flexible suggestion that allows magi to exert control over the Form COULD be a +2 magnitude requisite since it is more powerful. Does your spell have the +2 mag.? Let's consider that it has, or your troupe does not agree with additional magnitudes to keep it cheap. It is not really rellevant, since it is written in the text of the spell a static suggestion, anyway.
  • So you "paid" for a Rego spell that you exert complete control over the thing and can guide the missile through the air as you wish? You're right, you can guide it freely. That's it.
  • If your spell is like The Crystal Dart, you could just generate the projectile near the final target, not passing through the grogs, that's Voice range, right? I think it was not what you did, maybe because there was no Form material to work near the final target.
  • There's the thing that the Level 3 Rego Terram guideline lets the magus exert controll over Terram in a very unnatural way, so, in theory, it should allow a lot of unnatural behavior of a projectile. If this is not in the description of the spell and it uses this guideline, you should think what makes the control over the thing so unnatural if isn't a complex missile control.
  • The statement "always hits the target" is a static suggestion to the thing, and, as stated just above in the Metal Sphere conclusion, the projectile can be slightly guided to their final objective by the principles of Rego control over things, as long as the spontaneous suggestion directly benefits the final static built-in suggestion, but... it should be stated at the moment of the casting, since the spell don't let you control a missile, but controls it for you.

Yes, using player's lack of prudence against them is a dramatic technique that shoud be used with care and respect. "You forgot to say that the projectile should not hurt the grogs" is a good lesson about prudence with magic, and how magi should be careful because Magic does not make distinction between allies and enemies. That's why area damage is not always the answer if your loved one is your front-line. Even with all these good points, it requires some talking because it can be used as a way of punishing players and being an annoying matter in-game and out of it. It is fair, but a game should be fun too. Personally, I hate the trick "you forgot to say" and, as a storyteller, use this just in the moment that is NECESSARY for the CHARACTER to develop prudence, usually with player consent or very minor consequences that involves little or no issues with frustration. If the player commit mistakes, that just means he is human and not a real-world high-prudence magus.

I tried to do some analogies and argumentation that seems to make sense between each other, I can be wrong, deeply wrong and stupendously wrong. I am writing and searching this for a couple of hours, so the person who started is not the person who finished it. I am pretty sure there's some inconsistence, but treat them as me being imparcial and not-wanting-to-take-sides-on-your-problems, just here to talk about the game <3

YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE ANYTHING HERE AS A TRUTH JUST BECAUSE IT SEEMS A BIG TEXT, if this is not obvious. I used references, though. In the worst, trust them.

Sorry if it was too long. This is my first post (actually an answer) on this forum :slight_smile: