I don't think that the claim "Vampire is a Christian game" is a very strong one. Vampire merely appropriates Christian mythology to give a sense of antiquity and authenticity to its backstory. Vampire is not an attempt to "tell a Christian story", nor is an attempt to "assert the primacy of a Christian worldview", nor is it an attempt to "understand Christian mythology". At "best" Vampire could be read as an attempt to "ridicule Christian mythology", but I don't think that is generally the intention. Christianity is just appropriated as source material for the exotic and there's nothing wrong with that. However, it (Christianity) seems to suffer from the same problem of exoticism in games that you apparently see with Asian mythology.
Of course. Well, certainly they are not faeries, anyway. That's the point. They are just appropriated as exotic labels. Likewise, real-world (or even medieval) Christianity is not the ArM Divine.
Of course if you ever noticed, the "Exoticism" of Europe is not as bad they do Asia though by comparison.
I think I may not be remembering exactly but I read somewhere that the European Renaissance was the result of invasions of the Middle East and Asia.
Although Islam is sort of the 'official' religion while the others are pushed aside. Well actually Islam was spreaded via trade and adopted while Europeans were the ones that colonized.
No
However your still missing the point that it's still Christianity in the end which is what the games are based on.
Is Islam East or West? You seem to keep changing the definition to suit your argument.
And all those texts taken from the Arab world were copies of Greek texts that my people wrote long ago (my people being the Greeks). And Islam burned many books as well (Library of Alexandria).
The one and only point I can agree with you on is this...
That is something that bothers me. The uber French focus is most prominent in ArM5, earlier editions were more pan-European in nature. Case in point, one of the founders used to be Hispanic, which by US definition is a minority. They decided to re-make him French. I talked to the guy who did it, it was innocent and innocuous and he was riding the trend. But still...
According to what standard of measurement?
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I think I may not be remembering exactly but I read somewhere that the European Renaissance was the result of invasions of the Middle East and Asia.
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Source? That's wrong, IMO.
That's an outright falsehood. Indonesia has the Pancasila: and six official religions. If your argument only holds together by ignoring the biggest Muslim country on Earth, your argument's not holding together.
Well, that's a really inadaquate answer: iot seems like your definition of the West changes to suit each example.
I'd suggest you recheck it: the background in Vampire is clearly from the Book of Jublilees, which is a pre-Christian, Hebrew, source.
I get this a lot. As a Christian, I get harassed by atheists and ridiculed (not the other way around, not ever).
Almost always, when they want to open a debate about something, they pick on the Old Testament or other Hebrew works. I mention that they are picking on Jewish beliefs and this confuses them.
But the games are not based on Christianity. ArM is based around the Very Clever Idea of telling stories about wizards who cast spells using a Verb+Noun system (and there are arguably other aspects too). Vampire is based around the idea of telling stories about angsty superheroes in leather jackets and/or fishnet tights (or something like that). Both games do appropriate a mish-mash of ideas from Christianity in their backstory, but not in a way that actually makes sense from a Christian perspective, and not in a way that excludes adding to the mish-mash ideas from other sources. I doubt that many Christians would be offended by the games Vampire and ArM, but I equally doubt that many would recognise either as a Christian work.
You are right that games which add Asian cultural ideas seem to be less common (amongst western games anyway). However, there are some, and there has to be more of some things than others. For example, there are also few games set in the 19th century colonial pacific, and more games set on Earth than on Mars, but that doesn't imply any bias against the 19th century or Martians.
In addition, many mainstream games do actually include Asian derived elements ("ninjas on motorcycles" are a stable of many a genre, for example). You are also right that Asian cultural elements, when they are present, are often added in a superficial, fetishised manner to provide a veneer of the exotic ("ninjas on motorcycles", for example). However, this is no different to the treatment other cultural ideas get --- "Greek" and "Norse" gods, "Christianity", "Chivalry", etc are also just used in a superficial, fetishised manner as a source of the exotic. Certainly, individual games might do a better or worse, or more or less offensive job of this cultural appropiration. But at some point, what is needed/appropriate for the game will conflict with the real world. This seems unavoidable.
Marko, I think the French thing has been toned down since last edition. Ordo Nobilis was basically "Nobles are good, Christian nobles are better, but French Christian nobles are the best of all!" and Lords of Men is more like "Nobles basically have fun at the expense of other people. Even the good ones are part of a military culture, and to be a proper general means burning crops. It's not about French chivalry." so I feel that between that and the choice of locales (Thebes, Silk Road, Hungary/Bulgaria) things are a bit less French. Well, I suppose I'm cheating there because I'm including Transylvania.
Good point. The movement towards uber-French began at the tail end of ArM4 (as did addition of uber-Nordic as an exotic). The French focus peaked at the start of ArM5, and has toned down a bit. Not in time to save Reculed though.
Thebes Tribunal, just got it last week. It is good stuff. I am reading it with a discerning eye and it is not perfect (lack of details on Sparta, and the mistaken idea that we were somehow made extinct even though our city still stands and Doric is still a dialect).
I almost had a problem with the view on language, but reading further it was handled well. My yia-yia can read ancient Greek just fine, but to a non native speaker they may seem like different languages.
Let's take it back to topic. Greek is the root of Western culture. Greek culture has conquored the whole world. Through Math. So I have trouble identifying any modern culture as East or West. The Chineese are a modern superpower using math and science based on Greek thought. Is this westrn imperialism?
And the flag of China's governing political party has the hammer and sickle on it! The traditional emblem of filthy, running-dog western imperialists! Oh wait...
That's sorta the point. The East has adopted ideas from the West, the West from the East. It is one world. No one culture can truly be claimed to dominate over the others. And Imperialism alludes to deliberate intention. I doubt the intention was to westernize China so they could advance to becoming a preeminent superpower.
And in thinking of a Global Culture, it is only proper to showcase or highlight each separate facet in it's own light.
So there is a game based upon Mythic Europe. I like that. I am a Yank. European blood but a Yank through and through. Europe is an exotic mythical land to me. Never been there.
If I wanted an uber mish-mosh game, I'd still be playing D&D.
I think that a better point is that if you are seriously arguing that "The Chinese Communist Party" = "Western Imperialism", or (to get this back to gaming) "The Book of Nod" = "Christian Propaganda", then your definitions of "Western Imperialism" and "Christian Propaganda" are so broad as to be practically meaningless.
Sorry to bump this old thread but I have some things to answer....
Actually Myths can easily collide because the point is, we're talking about diversity which is the basis of "All Myths are True" since if you have only myth that is true that rules out all the others than it's not only boringly predictable but also becomes problematically racist which has colonialist overtones.
Also real world myths and folklore are not the same as fiction either since they're believed and shared by people who live in this world and they don't take place in their own fictional worlds like Lord of the Rings does.
Yes this is racism since if the rest of the world are a creation of white people, it's actually even worse and it seems Ars Magica justifies white supremacy.
Oh get this "Europe" is not even it's even own continent either and it's part of Euroasia and notion that it's the home of white people is made up by the basis of white supremacy.
Point is, I really don't care about Mythic Europe since what if I wanted to set the game in East Asia, Africa or even Pre-Columbian America? Actually I've taken a interest of Mesoamerican and Pueblo, Anasazi/Zuni cultures lately mainly because it can transition from it's "Middle Ages" setting to the Old West when playing as immortal characters.
Once again? I don't recall having discourse with you previously, or even just calling you out ever before.
So you say you want discourse when I accuse you of trolling. But your posts suggests nothing of the sort. First, you resurrect a 4 year old topic, then you drop a bomb about Ars Magica justifying or appearing to justify white supremacy and flat out say that the system is racist. Then, you didn't ask any questions, or suggest points for further discussion. So, no, I don't find your position of desiring discourse as being credible. I'll stand by my initial statement.
