Alt setting - Covenants or no covenants...

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

An ongoing project of mine is an alternate setting, still in Mythic Europe but with more emphasis on the folklore and history of Mythic Europe. I alternate between having no Order of Hermes, or a structually different Order.

For references sake, the wizards of my Order are more like Learned Magicians - scholars and philosophers. The non-Latin houses are not part of the Order and I'm tweeking certain spell guidelines to make spectacular elemental magic more diffcult (among other things, with an eye toward making Perdo Corpus the prefered from of "battle magic" rather than Creo Ignem). I'm working toward wizards who are astrologers, alchemists and spirit masters and who don't need a huge special effects budget. :slight_smile:

One of my debates is the existance and prevelence of covenants. In canon, covenants are often modest sized communities and often major landholders... which puts them in a strange position regarding the mudane world, were land equals wealth and power.

In my alternate setting, I've consider doing away with covenants entirely... but from a gaming standpoint, covenants exist as an excuse for a bunch of disperate wizards to be together, sharing common resources, problems and goals. Another option I consider is that covenants exists "secretly", hidden within universities, cathedral schools and monastaries (clearly the Divine aura presents as issue of this model, but that can be worked around... and the social effects of the Gift are lessened in my setting, not eliminated but closer kin to the Social Handicap flaw). Naturally, a compromise would be a combination where there are a larger number of individual wizards and a handful of these hidden covenants.

How do you think the Order would be different, if most wizards lived alone, or in small groups of master and apprentice, and those who didn't lived in hidden covenants, secretly operating within universities and churches? Clearly, it would change the dynamics of Tribunals and perhaps the very definition of a quortate Tribunal. What other impacts do you think it might have? Would it make more sense to do away with covenants entirely?

2

I think you'd have exactly what was before the order was started.

3

If things were different, I think covenants dominated by a single House would be more common.

I think you can play with the content of the covenant beyond that, but why would Jerbiton not band together out of preference? Or Bonisagus? Or Criamon? I think it's harder to justify the status quo where we have numerous Houses represented in each covenant. Would that be boring? I don't think so. Each of the Houses has multiple ways to play them and with various Mysteries, fifteen Arts, and numerous lab activities to specialise in I think each magus has a good chance of being whatever you want them to be. I think it also helps to set up political differences a little better and to help craft stories of intrigue and power politics between the Houses as you have these islands of influence.

However, it is a game and players all like to bring different things to the gaming table, so the player covenant naturally should reflect whatever they want to play.

4

I agree... and to carry it further, I think that the Houses would tend to dominate certain Tribunals/geographic regions. Much like the Tremere dominate Transylvania, I could see the Jerbiton dominating France, the Flambeau dominating Iberia, etc. The Houses could even take on the cultural "flavor" for their regions... Jerbiton magi are French and a French magus is Jerbiton. It wouldn't be universal... a Jerbiton magus who is a Magister in Artibus and taught at Oxford would train his English students in the Jerbiton tradition... but it would further lend a weight to the Houses.

5

I'm not sure I want to live in that Mythic Europe. As powerful as magi can be, a magus can be quite weak... What happens to the Blatantly Gifted magus who people can't stand to be around? If magi are going to be alone or in small groups, I think they need to be more powerful, which creates other problems...

Covenants are the most important character in the saga. In some sagas they shape all the stories...

6

The analagous organizational structure to the OoH could be the Catholic Church. All Magi within Europe are part of the order, it allows no rivals within its domain and actively seeks to expand and convert those beyond its control, just as the Catholic church doesn't tolerate paganism or heresy within its borders, and seeks to evangelize to expand Christiandom.

Just as the Pope in Rome was really just a bishop at one point, but his status as "first amongst equals" eventually put the Papacy in a position of primacy. Similarly, H Bonisagus might have a dominate position, with other houses being somewhat subordinate, but not powerless.

Other houses would be, not bishoprics, but like holy and knightly orders - the Cistercians, Dominicans, Franciscans, Hospitalars, Templars, etc. At this point, their authority might come from, H Bonisagus given to that house for specific purposes. In that sort of arrangement, the stereotypical covenant with 6 magi of different houses would be extremely rare. Instead, they would be like monestaries and crusader fortresses, consisting of members of a single house, or perhaps two houses with complementary purposes.

And, just as certain nations dominated some holy orders, some groups would naturally dominate some houses, but they would not be exclusive.

Seen in this light, the purging of the didnae is kind of like the destruction of the knights templar or the anti-cathar crusades.

7

I would say you are quite close to goal here, but still far off in terms of position of Catholic church.
OOH as it is in RAW is much like early Christian church. Bonisagi have position of honor "primus inter pares" overall.
But attempt to do what Catholic church did (and which was and still is very strongly opposed by other parts of Christian church who do not accept any position beyond honoric for pope) would mean OOH would become more similar to modern Christian church IMO.

Houses would be more like individual churches. Bonisagus RCC, big powerful and claiming dominance while others represent other parts of Christianity. All would be under same "roof" so to speak, "Hermetic order", but none would accept superiority of one over another. This assuming Parma Magica was spread between founders before Bonisagi tried to claim position of power.

Such setting would give lots of room for interhouse conflict and backstabbing.

8

One possible scenario, the blantantly gifted magus get's driven out of town and ends up living alone in a cave or hut in the woods, with everyone in the area spreading rumors about "the witch of the woods." Sounds perfectly setting appropriate to me. Not necessarily fun to play, but if you don't want to play that don't take Blatant Gift. :slight_smile:

I confess I don't follow your conclusion... why would lone magi be more powerful? On the contrary, without the support of covenants and shared learning, I think they would generally be less powerful as they would less opportunities for advancement.

For some sagas, yes. For other sagas, not necessarily. Still, this is why I don't want to do away with covenant's completely. The "hidden covenant" still provides a gather place and central locus for a saga if the players so wish.

9

My conclusion isn't that the are more powerful, but that they need to be more powerful to be the lone wizard in the tower. I agree that without a covenant, shared learning and his sodales a magus is actually pretty weak. This is one reason why I limit the number of magi on certain stories, too divided they are weak, together they are strong.

For some sagas, yes. For other sagas, not necessarily. Still, this is why I don't want to do away with covenant's completely. The "hidden covenant" still provides a gather place and central locus for a saga if the players so wish.
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Then instead of making covenants rare, make them more reclusive and less involved in the affairs of mundanes, maybe reduce the number of covenants, make them all harder to get to, and reduce/remove any hooks to the outside world. IF you want to shelter then in universities, these might be the "spring" covenants" who are searching for a more suitable location somewhere but staying in a place of learning so they could hide in the open.

10

The trouble I have at the moment with reclusive covenants, less involved in the affairs of mundanes is the standards set in Covenants. If a typical covenant, in order to support itself, controls lands and wealth on par with a Greater Baron, there is no real way they could be reclusive and uninvolved with the affairs of mundanes... not even, IMO, to the degree assumed by canon. A community which controls a collection of farming villages and keeps a cadre of professional fighting men at it's command, while owing no loyalty to any king or lord, cannot avoid being involved. It's neighbors simply could not ignore it.

Part of my solution, as you suggest, is to reduce the number of covenants. However, I cannot find a way to sever their ties to mundane world and still maintain their level of income/wealth/food/support. Thus, my second solution: to hide them. If a cathedral or monastery holds lands and keeps a number of lay servants, scribes and teachers, no one would question it... and if a few of those canons or monks happen to be able to turn lead into gold in their spare time, well the ignorant always suspect such things of learned men.

Another possible hiding place, for perhaps a more "typical" covenant, might be within a regio... but I don't imagine there are all that many regios large enough to support a self sufficient community of wizards and their hangers-on. Still, I can imagine a few ancient Fall/Winter covenants hidden within such regios, while some more Spring/Summer covenants hide within the institutions of the world... with the Church and universities providing the best environment for them.

(Thanks, BTW, for helping me work this... pray, keep the suggestions flowing.)

11

I really like the idea of a saga set within a university - where some of the learned masters are wizards, keeping that fact secret, initiating some of the brighter students perhaps - clandestine meeting s and the like. are secret :smiley: Sounds very cool and thematic - and even without changing the setting this could be that basis for a jerbiton covenant (obviously gentle gift would be a must). Awesome idea

12

Why does the covenant have to control land? Maybe they have vis sufficient to meet their needs? Vis to create wealth, vis to create food. They don't need to control a vast amount of land. As far as armed men, bandits and brigands aren't uncommon are they? The local lord only gets bothered when they start roaming and pillaging, too much. Presumably a covenant can prevent that.
Covenants can become more reclusive if they have a stable and large enough supply of vis to meet their needs, and the ritual spells to create those things. They can become extremely small and compact that way, as they don't need hundreds of people doing work.

So maybe, spring covenants start out in Universities, and then when they move into summer it's because they have the necessary ritual spells to support themselves, have located sufficient supplies of vis in a specific area to remove themselves from society and they have retainers of various types that want to go with them. This might take 10-15 years or so. Not so long that the those posing as scholars or monks are noticed because they never appear to age...

Summer covenants work to further hide themselves from the mundane world, looking to either create a regio, or exploit an existing one that gets discovered, building items that can do the work of many by only one, things like that.

Autumn covenants enjoy the fruit of their harvest, secure in their vis sources, and isolation from the mundane world.

Winter, well, that's still standard, being reborn into spring requires new blood, which is harder to get with the covenant isolated, and fresh faced magi unable to have developed a retinue...

13

Schola Pythagoranis, from the 4th Edition Stonehenge Tribunal book: Heirs to Merlin.

14

To be clear, I am not speaking of RAW. I have similar desires to tweak the setting as regards covenants and the OoH. I'd like for them to "fit" better into Mythic Europe than I feel the presently do. I haven't yet crystalized my concept; its still developing.

I admit this to be an imperfect analogy, but I think it still useful. Consider what follows to apply to H Bonisagus's domination of the OoH or, if you don't like that idea, just a description of how the OoH operates:

There were christian churches and other religions that did not accept the Pope/Catholocism's control, both inside and outside of Europe. Some were tolerated most of the time, but occasionally persecuted (judaism). Some were eradicated whenever possible (Cathars and Pagans). Some were co-existant - sometimes mutually friendly, sometimes mutually hostile (Eastern Orthodox). Some had little relationship at all, owing to distance and/or cultural barriers (Nestorian and Eithiopian Christianity). Some were more or less continually mutually hostile (Islam).

Similarly, some non-OoH magi are tolerated/persecuted (minor hedge wizards), some are eradicated like cathars (didnae) or at least pushed to the fringes like Pagans (Order of Odin), some are mutually hostile (Order of Suliman), etc.

The Catholic Church claims primacy in the religious sphere, control over men's souls. The OoH claims sole jurisdiction over magical matters, in that all gifted individuals must (theoretically) join or die. Just as the Catholic Church can't kill or convert every heathen on the planet, the OoH can't really hope to have every gifted individual under their umbrella, but that is more or less their goal.

I sometimes think of the OoH as a "Magical Mafia." :wink:

I've been thinking along these lines because it seems to me that the positions of various houses really aren't equal in the RAW anyway. Bonisagus can grab anyone's apprentice, Trianoma types tend to be dominate in order-wide politics, Gurnecus has most of the quasitors, Mercere controls the flow of information and goods through redcaps and portals, and several houses have secrets that they keep from the rest of the order (mystery houses).

Well, Bonisagus or Trianoma went to the other founders and asked them to join their fledling group, right? Did they make them "an offer they couldn't refuse?" Did some of those groups initially resist, but become overawed by the effect of parma?

From there, I see it as more of an evolution of roles, but Bonisagus certainly started from a position of power, and thus could assert certain privlidges over other magi, like studying their books and taking their apprentices. And since not everyone wants to get involved in politics, Trianoma's kin would have naturally extended their authority over time, just like the Pope did.

Yeah :smiley: In my current saga, the magi are undergoing their gauntlet. They have been living for the past 15 years inside a magical regio. When they get out into the wider world, they may find that the OoH is not quite the congenial, unified body they have been led to believe.

15

Ah, I see your point. I also reject it out of hand. I do not allow such things in my sagas and haven't for so long that I forget it is a house rule. Sorry. :slight_smile:

Also, it isn't the standard... if we accept Covenants as establishing the standard for canonical covenants.

16

I wanted to go a bit that route myself, but my players were asking for high fantasy. So, in my saga, most educated people, and even some peasants, are aware of the Order. Its not well known, and frequently misunderstood, but as magic is as real in this world as anything else that could be studied and reasoned about, esoteric scholars and philosophers are the common way that magi are described. Most people understand that there is a distinction between magic and outright diabolism, but the less they know about it, the more likely they are to jump to the conclusion that it is the latter. Amongst learned clergy, the more open minded types have generally cordial relationships with magi, but more conservative groups preach against the use of magic, as it can make it all to easy to give into temptation and sin. Any analogy to the modern era is poor, but magic is something like computer programing - most people know about it, but don't understand it.

I like these ideas - why would most Magi be trying to make the ultimate fireball spell anyway? Seems like most would try to avoid combat; they aren't really interested in power over mundanes; they're smart enough to find other solutions to problems besides violence, etc.

As this our first ArM.x saga, I didn't want to deviate from RAW much. Fortunately, they went for things like summoning and vim, not so much the action-movie spells.

The reason covenants need all those peasants and all that land is because magi are lazy. They want someone to bring them food while they read books all day. Without them, Magi would have to "work" for 1-3 seasons per year to support themselves. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but something to be considered.

Yes, without them, you'll need a very strong story with good hooks to keep the characters together and avoid infighting. You might look to the Order of Suliman in C&C for inspiration, as they are much like what you're describing.

These hidden covenants wouldn't be covenants in the traditional sense, as they don't exist primarily to support the magi. Instead, they have their own purposes, and the magi (and perhaps their companions and grogs) are like a parasitic secret society. Note that unless they were stealing from the monestary/university and/or held all positions of authority and lacked oversite, they would have to "work" for 1-3 seasons.

17

I wanted to go a bit that route myself, but my players were asking for high fantasy. So, in my saga, most educated people, and even some peasants, are aware of the Order. Its not well known, and frequently misunderstood, but as magic is as real in this world as anything else that could be studied and reasoned about, esoteric scholars and philosophers are the common way that magi are described. Most people understand that there is a distinction between magic and outright diabolism, but the less they know about it, the more likely they are to jump to the conclusion that it is the latter. Amongst learned clergy, the more open minded types have generally cordial relationships with magi, but more conservative groups preach against the use of magic, as it can make it all to easy to give into temptation and sin. Any analogy to the modern era is poor, but magic is something like computer programing - most people know about it, but don't understand it.

I like these ideas - why would most Magi be trying to make the ultimate fireball spell anyway? Seems like most would try to avoid combat; they aren't really interested in power over mundanes; they're smart enough to find other solutions to problems besides violence, etc.

As this our first ArM.x saga, I didn't want to deviate from RAW much. Fortunately, they went for things like summoning and vim, not so much the action-movie spells.

The reason covenants need all those peasants and all that land is because magi are lazy. They want someone to bring them food while they read books all day. Without them, Magi would have to "work" for 1-3 seasons per year to support themselves. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but something to be considered.

Yes, without them, you'll need a very strong story with good hooks to keep the characters together and avoid infighting. You might look to the Order of Suliman in C&C for inspiration, as they are much like what you're describing.

These hidden covenants wouldn't be covenants in the traditional sense, as they don't exist primarily to support the magi. Instead, they have their own purposes, and the magi (and perhaps their companions and grogs) are like a parasitic secret society. Note that unless they were stealing from the monestary/university and/or held all positions of authority and lacked oversite, they would have to "work" for 1-3 seasons.

18

Alright, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you want a non-canonical setting don't say what I present is non-canonical. Fair? :smiley:

Perhaps you need to revisit some house rules. Establish your ideal and work backwards from that to see what is necessary to support it.

19

Well, sure, that works if you have naked magi eating food off gold coins outdoors. Most would need Vis to create and maintain buildings. Vis to create and maintain clothing for the magi, weapons and armor for their grogs. Vis to create vellum, inks, and quills for their books. Vis to make magic items to clean the dirty dishes resulting from that magically created food. Eventually, you run low on Vis and start hiring servants.
And in my saga, the 20 MP silver/magus/year ruling from one tribunal is mostly adhered to - no one wants to exceed it or wiggle around it by creating gold/silk/amber and possibly provoke a more harsh ruling in their own tribunal if they end up disrupting the local economy.

Those servants gotta get paid and/or fed/housed too, so now the food needs exceed what anyone wants to pay in vis, and its time to recruit some peasants to work the land. Ritual spells and the like could help make those peasants a lot more productive, so you wouldn't need many of them, but I don't see a lot of magi living without any support.

The lone hermit living in the woods is certainly a possibility, but he would need to "work" for 1-3 seasons to support himself. Most Hermetic Magi don't like to waste time collecting mushrooms for dinner, and they don't like wasting vis creating them, so they get some servants to do it for them.

Where in this cycle you propose would new magi come from to found the original new spring covenants inside universities? Why would gauntleted apprentices leave the comfortable summer/autumn covenants they'd been trained in to found new covenants? Not debating, just curious your take.

20

Fair! :smiley: Though in my defense I'm trying to define how my setting deviates from canon rather than have it differs from other non-canonical settings... as the second road leads to madness, I think. :slight_smile:

You're not wrong. :slight_smile: I'll ponder that.