Alternate Mythic Europe(s)

Hey, folks.

An odd idea came to me in the midst of Stranger Things (no spoilers please, I'm still in season 1).
Marvel may have contributed as well.

What if Mythic Europe as published is actually in a network of regiones that are all a level or two above the true mundane level? E.g. what your magi perceive as the "mundane" world at +0 is actually a +1 or +2 aura.

Not being sure what to call these new regiones, since they contain auras and regiones of all Realms, I'll call them Phase Regiones for now, for how "out of phase" each layer is with the true Mundane.

How would magi ever discover this?

All I could think of was discovering and entering a regio with levels below the one the magi enter on. They enter expecting Infernal levels with demons and such, but eventually find a field with a farmer or three with scythes and not much else.

Depending on the time period they land in, there could be a wide variety of responses to their appearance.

The magi should still have some magic in mundane Medieval Europe, but it will be more difficult as the default to my mind seems to be -1 now.

Thoughts, anyone?

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I remembered a post in Timothy Ferguson's blog about places with a negative faerie aura. I found it here: Link.

He discusses the possibility of a regio with an excess of mundanity- with less romance and magic than Mythic Europe.

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3rd edition actually had a 5th Realm, Reason, with its own Auras that could erode all others, even Divine ones, and dampen all supernatural powers - with the exception of the Infernal! The idea was that eventually, Reason would overtake the world (in the style of Mage the Ascension). That may well have happened in 5th edition: you don't see Reason in Mythic Europe exactly because Mythic Europe is a regio (or rather, a network of regiones) that's been "kicked up" as Reason conquered the world.

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How is that different from a good (?) old Aura of Reason?

My immediate thought is, if you want a really complex plot whose management challenges your cognitive capacity as SG, this is great. Personally, I need to keep the world a little simpler, so that I can afford to make the characters a little more complex and fun to play.

Maybe the two regio levels even co-exist until our time, and all the wizards and faeries simply prefer to stay at the higher level while we are stuck on the wrong (right?) one.

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Deep cuts! Thanks for remembering. 8)

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Well mundanity is a better name than reason, and would probably be associated with things that are exceptionally mundane instead of being tied to institutions of education. It avoids the paradox that reason in a blatantly magical world would conclude that magic exists.

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If you assume that the infernal is essentially the same thing as a negative divine (though other models could exist) then the degree of compatibility between magic and faerie would suggest that if one has a negative realm the other should as well.
An interesting postulation to this would be the idea that the apparent conflict over the essence of the magic realm (a realm of monstrosities vs. a realm of platinic ideals) is because what the Order has been terming the magic realm is in fact both the positive (platonic ideals) and negative (monstrosities, perversion of those ideals) aspects being treated the same.

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That's a really good insight! The connection between "negative magic" and magical monstrosity. In my games, I typically hold that the reason behind chimera-like creatures and other warped magical things is generally caused by interference between the deep magic realm and our world. After all, what we call a horse is terribly tainted by the incidents and accidents of the material world such that it only resembles true horseness.

So I find the idea that a place even more removed from Magic being a place of even more erratic and distorted physical space and possessed of even more confused or admixtured magical creatures to be pretty compelling.

Silveroak touched as well on the distinction between the idea of "negative faerie" and the realm of reason, to great effect. I'd like to add that I view "negative faerie" as being affected by how faerie is the realm that holds that human beliefs and thoughts matter. It enshrines them with great significance and manifests the stories and thoughts of humans into the world.

When you walk through the forest at night, Faerie will cast the shadows deeper and send skittering through the trees outside of your sight, to remind you that the world is full of terrible wonder. It will not permit this place to simply be a dark and empty place of trees and dead leaves.

When you look upon the world, heart full of dreams and nightmares, Faerie does not allow your eyes to behold an empty world that cares for neither.

So a realm of inverted Faerie is a place that says that humans matter less. Their dreams are harder to make real. The world is full of more barriers between what is in your heart and what is.

You run into your one true love less. You have wild adventures less. It's harder and harder to make what you dream about into something real- the world is less willing to bend slightly to make it easier for you, to smooth over uninteresting things to reach the drama and passion behind your actions. The chances for awe and wonder to strike deep into the hearts of every person is lessened.

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That's certainly one way to approach it. However, as I read this paragraph:

For some reason, Freddy Kreuger instantly jumped into my mind. Maybe "inverted Faerie" is the stuff of human nightmares and those Fae gather vitality solely from human fear?

When I posted my original thought I was just thinking of how it would work out to potentially allow Hermetic Magi to visit the actual, truly mundane, Medieval Europe. With my stipulated aura differences they'd still be able to actually use magic there, if at a penalty. Make an interesting story or two.

I'm loving how different people are taking it and seeing different possible ways to interpret and/or utilize it. Please keep it up, y'all are creating some great ideas and good reading.

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Seiglie and unseighlie are both faerie, and this has been the case since as far back as the term faerie has existed, and through multiple versions of the realm through the editions. Certainly in the current versions both heros and villains are based on narratives, so no, the negative of faerie is not simply dark faerie. If anything it should be that which has no story, which simply is, but that fits too closely with the realm of ideals as a basis for the magic realm. It might be the realm of the utterly mundane, or it could be a realm based on secrecy- as much as faeries seek vitality it would seek to not be known, and potentially to hide whatever supernatural forces might dwell within it- the way a faerie might cover vis in glamour these anti-faeries would cloak it from being found, thus giving an appearance of being mundane.

Invoking more thread necromancy here, but it seemed better to contribute to a discussion among others who were once interested rather than simply creating a new thread.

This is all on the subject of 'Mythic Europe' all being a big 'Regione +1' over a mundane world that characters do not usually see. It may take a few pages.

First of all, I liked the Realm of Reason in 3rd edition. It was cut for various reasons; some of them quite good (copyright law, being too early in the timeline, etc). But Mythic Europe is a place of stories, and one of the most compelling stories is the (TORG rpg-like) struggles of various supernatural realms (Divine, Faerie, Infernal, Magical, Reason, etc) to accrue influence over the hearts and minds of people who are just trying to make it through their daily lives. It is more than just a story of thieves and kings; it is a story of gods, too. Reality is reshaped by who those who carry the day.

But this line of (admittedly unfashionable, 'Belief Defines Reality', Creature's Perogative) thinking leads me to propose also the Realm of the Common. It is a Realm which has no powers, but interacts with powers from all other Realms the same way (D: -0.5xAura, F: -0.5xAura, I: -0.5xAura, M: -0.5xAura, etc) -- primarily it is simply the original state of the world, and simply acts as an impediment to establishing any other type of Aura. Other Realms are also welcome, the more the merrier -- provided it doesn't swamp the Story Guide.

I mentioned another rpg (TORG); and I will do it again: "The Primal Order". TPO was one of the very first RPG products by Wizards of the Coast, although they no longer seem to admit to ever having printed it, and a few supplements which were promised never made it to print. The Primal Order was concerned with playing as gods, and described a cosmology which made gods limited and interesting; they vied for control over 'Planes of Existence' and 'Worshipers' because these things enhanced their power which otherwise grew only very slowly. Gods and planes of existence were described with very similar mechanics as well; and worshipers of a god could (upon death) be absorbed into the god -- whose body presented an appropriate afterlife (ie, the 'body' of the god essentially was geography which was only accessible to the souls of worshipers; and populating it also gave the god a little boost of power).

Ars Magica doesn't do Planes of Existence, though. But Regiones are almost exactly 'Planes', and 'Networks of Regiones' leads me to a thought experiment. Here it is:

Make a saga in Mythic Europe unmappable.

Most commoners never leave the village they were born in; beyond the edges of the fields, off the edges of the roads, outside the tiny circle of light cast by human civilization, lurks the Primeval Wild. A typical villager (not trained to survive in the Wild), children, or so on -- if they wander outside of their village, they enter the Primeval Forest and become lost; they wander until they starve, are killed by Fierce Beasts, or otherwise die -- unless they are extremely lucky. The Primeval Forest is infinite in all directions; it cannot be mapped; it changes constantly; and it is at least mildly hostile. Similarly, the Primeval Desert is absolutely infinite in all directions; so is the Primeval Grassland, and the Primeval Ocean, the Primeval Mountains, and so on. The only safe way to traverse Primeval Wild places is via a 'path'; a road; a known, pre-charted course; and so on. The paths have a known (approximate) travel time, but no actual meaningful direction or location.

Very few, hardy people posses the skills to survive in the Wild. Mapping the Primeval Wild is futile; it is simply a list (which is quite easy to modify or update on the fly) of random encounters. Nobody ever settles in the Primeval Wild -- they just create a new settlement which is (of course) surrounded by the Primeval Wild. Ruins of abandoned (forgotten, or destroyed, or otherwise depopulated) settlements (and castles! and temples! and tombs!) can be found in the Primeval Wild -- and lost again, if the explorer perishes or simply walks away. There needs to be a method for certain hardy (specially trained or skilled) folk to create, discover, or 'rediscover' paths through the Primeval Wild -- I do not know what that method is, but it needs to be dauntingly non-trivial.

'Paths' connect the places we are actually interested in -- Planes of Existence. Or, Regiones. Or, settlements of some sort. Each settlement connects (via paths) to one or more others; and their precise geographical relationship is unimportant. Each settlement, each area of civilization and the worked land around it, has an aura and may (or may not) be a Regione. Imagine two villages connected by a three-day path through the Primeval Forest; over a year, each village grows and clears an additional days travel worth of land around each of them -- the path through the Primeval Forest is still a three day path; the Wild cannot be cleared or shrunk, it is always infinite.

In some cases there may be NO POSSIBLE geographic mapping between settlements. This is fine -- magnetic compasses were not a feature of Medieval Europe, and even if they had been only a very tiny minority would know what they were, know how to use them, or be able to afford them; and celestial observations (which depend on a clear view of the sky and the horizon) were similarly difficult. A trip to the big city was not a matter of 'take the interstate north for this exact distance', it was more a matter of 'follow this guide who has been there before' or 'get to a place where you can find a guide'. Maps (where they exist at all) will be 'strip maps', turn by turn directions, not depictions of the geography. This is a place where Mythic Europe can be wilder and more interesting (and more about cool stories) than Medieval Europe. Each location is now a separate reality; sometimes with different rules that govern the reality -- and the actions of characters can influence not just the events in a specific story, but also aspects of the location. Maybe a village will become more or less aligned to the Fae as a result of player choices -- or the Divine, Infernal, or Magical Realms, or other realms you may introduce.

Anyhow, that my two cents. And I realize that Primeval Coastline, and Primeval Rivers might require special handling -- and there are other aspects which need to be fleshed out before this is playable.

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