Has anyone ever done the designs for Mundane Fox or Owls?

Unfortunately I don't have access to HoH: MC (game store was sold out) and friend with book was unavailable. The book of mundane beasts (from back of RoP: Magic) is not very helpful for designing mundane animals.

Lessee. Off-the-cuff guesstimates. Comments welcome.

A fox.

Size -2,
Cun 1, Per 1, Pre -2, Com -5,
Str -4, Sta +1, Dex +2, Qik +4

Ambush Predator, Crafty, Good Jumper (+3 for jumping), Keen Sense of Smell (+3 Perception, +2 Hunt)

Perfect Balance, Nocturnal

Brawl 3 (bite), Survival 3 (home terrain), Awareness 3 (food), Athletics 3 (running), Stealth 4 (stalking prey), Hunt 4 (prey)

Teeth Init +4, Atk +8 Dfn +9, Dam -3

An owl. There are bigger ones, but this would be the Size -4 from HoH:MC.

Size -4
Cun 0, Per +3, Pre -1, Com -2
Str -7, Sta 0, Dex +2, Qik +6

Nocturnal, Sharp Ears, Magical Air, Latent Magic Ability
Crafty, Ambush Predator (modified to give a 'flying' specialty for Stealth), Extra natural weapons (claws), Keen Eyes.

Brawl 2 (claws), Survival 3 (home terrain), Awareness 4 (food), Athletics 3 (flying), Stealth 4 (flying), Hunt 4 (prey)

Beak Init +6 Atk +7 Dfn +9 Dmg -6
Claws +5 Atk +7 Dfn +12 Dmg -5

Maybe reduce size by 1for the fox, they´re smaller than you think.

A fox average about 5-6kg, owls range from 31g to more than 5kg.

Cats range from 2.5kg to above 11kg normally and more than 20kg by overfeeding (with 6-7kg might be "normal").

Cat is -3, so a fox at -4 feels a bit better and then the more "compact" but similar in weight, owl at -5(same as a rabbit)?

Edit: where the heck did part of the text in the middle go???
Edit2: What the !!!!! The text between "5kg" and "11kg" disappeared AGAIN??? Ok, splitting it up and a few small changes to see if that fixes it, excuse the not so pretty text that is the result... Lets see if it didnt like "more than" and "less than" signs...

Disable HTML parsing in the post. :slight_smile:

For sizes, I used the table in HoH:MC. It gave size -2 for the fox, but yeah, it should be probably be -3 (cat-sized). I think -4 would be too small, especially given the effect on stats. :confused:

Also, keep in mind that birds have a +1 size modification on top of what their weight would indicate.

Likely the book said -2 for foxes due to the longer and wider bodies (on average) than the domestic feline. From what Ive managed to find the weight ranges seem to coincide, so its really a subjective issue as to which size increment sits better with any particular SG or troupe.

I would probably opt for -2 just for the sake of establishing a clear distinction between the two species. Doesn't ultimately matter though I suppose.

As someone that has had a fox sitting on her head and shoulder and sponsors a fox at the Indiana wolf park, they are bigger than cats. Even They are smaller than wolves but they are not tiny.

Size -2 sounds about right

Looking at Wikipedia, the red fox is 5-11 kg in size, 12"-33" in size plus tail. I don't know many cats that get to close to 3' in body length. (admittedly the red fox is largest breed of fox, but it is also the one native to IReland).

Doh stupid typo, of course i meant fox as equal to catsized, not smaller still...

Didnt know about the birdmod...

And yes you´re probably right about the trouble being HTML...
I do that so rarely i didnt think about it.

Correction, they are bigger than SMALL cats. You compare foxes with WOLVES??? Thats a tenfold or MORE average weight differential for goodness sake(wolves can get up to 80kg even if 50-60 is normal)! ... cteristics
Dogs (male foxes) weigh on average, 5.9kg and vixens (female foxes) weigh less, at 5.2kg (13 lbs and 11.5 lbs, respectively).
Cats typically weigh between 2.5 and 7 kg (5.5–16 pounds); however, some breeds, such as the Maine Coon, can exceed 11.3 kilograms (24.9 lb). Some have been known to reach up to 23 kilograms (51 lb) due to overfeeding. Conversely, very small cats (less than 1.8 kilograms (4.0 lb)) have been reported
The largest cat ever was officially reported to have weighed in at about 21.297 kilograms (46.952 lb) (46 lb 15.25 oz).

Meaning that even if we ONLY look at the biggest type of fox rather than average we are still looking at two animals roughly equal in size.

If we instead look at an average fox and an average cat, the cat is bigger...

Same size for both foxand cat and we are set then. Easy :slight_smile: However, in my mind (and that might be extremely far from reality) an average fox would be larger than an average cat. They can be the same size, but the fox would be stronger and tougher w¡hiole the cat is swifter and more dexterous

The characteristics seem fair to me, even if I would give the fox a +3 Cunning. After all, fox is the renowned for its cunning in most legends, right? I like animals to reflect their legendary characteristics, even in their mundane form.



You think so until you see the two of them next to each other, or fighting.
The cats are usually the stronger side. And wild cats often hunt larger prey than foxes do. After finding that out, is when you realise just how small a fox usually is.

Going with legendary qualities in a game like this? Definitely a fine idea for sure.

The Size Table in HoH:MC refers to domestic cats and (obviously) wild foxes. Although mass is the most important consideration with Size, it is not everything.

A male red fox has a head-body length averaging 68 cm and a 44 cm tail. They weigh an average of 5.9 kg.

A small domestic cat - probably more representative of medieval cats than a wild cat or Maine Coon which has been discussed here - has a HBL of 40 cm, a tail of 28 cm, and a mass of 3 kg. Since the mass is half that of a fox, a one point difference in Size is spot on.

I have no doubt that wild cats or well-fed domestic moggies are easily the match of a fox, but that is not what we are discussing here. I should note that red foxes are replacing wild cats in Scotland through competitive exclusion, suggesting that ecologically (if not physically) they are in some way 'superior'. [There are other explanations for the decline of the Scottish wild cat, but red foxes are at least partially responsible. Red foxes are also replacing lynx in other parts of Europe.]


This book is available in pdf format at

Totally disagree. Wild cats from what i can gather have been around all the time for thousands of years, and average in size vaugely similar to a red fox(their size range is far broader).
And just picking the SMALL domestic cat for comparison, thats silly.
You´re adjusting reality to suit your preferred result.

Fox and cat on AVERAGE comes out very closely in size, while a SMALL cat should be a size smaller than a large fox.

Never heard of that and i must say it sounds extremely odd, especially regarding lynx, foxes simply dont get into a fight with a lynx, or they die end of story. The regular European lynx have a normal size of 15-30+kg.
So obviously its not a matter of direct competition causing any replacing.
While they do compete somewhat for similar "small catch", but thats "on the edges" really as the lynx will regularly catch larger prey which is far outside the league of any fox.

My guess is that if the fox is taking over, its because foxes dont mind being close to humans, wild cats and lynx are extremely shy in comparison. While foxes dont mind getting close enough for stealing your shoes, literally, my dad lost 2 pairs of shoes to the same fox family many years ago.

I don't know your average breed of fox that you refer to. An arctic fox is most definately cat size and smaller. Red foxes though are as I said. I have been in with all five of the red foxes (Their now dead original and newer ones) and feed them by hand of the foxes of the indiana wolf park ( All five of them are bigger than cats by a factor. I have sene some cats that seem denser but in physical size and space occupied, the red fox would be the size class bigger.

Personally, when the table says 'cat', I think house cat, not wild cat. And I don't think Maine Coon either, which I had never even heard of before this thread. Arguably, neither they, nor well-fed modern house cats in general are representative of Mythic Europe house cats.

yikes! that's a damn big kitty :wink:

That's better: (can't seem to be able to make that one either a link or an inline image) ... 61.jpg?v=0

No, I'm not. I designed the Size table in HoH:MC :slight_smile:

The Cat entry in the main rules only works with the logarithmic progression of Size if you assume it is a domestic cat rather than a wild cat (it's got to be half the weight of a medium dog, or a tenth of the weight of an adult human). I would actually put wild cats at Size -2 ...from what I gather from my sources, medieval (domestic) cats were small, scrawny things.


Beware the things that go 'meow' in the dark, my friend! :wink:

And not one of the small types of fox...
Dual opposing conditions required to be met for it to be correct...

Should see the cats my aunt has. Most of them are well fed AND very well exercised, 8-12kg musclepacks that loves jumping all over you. One of them liked to go out and hunt snakes... :wink:

Well, my Persian cat Nicholas used to be around 12 kg as well, and was a match for the neighbourghood rotweilers. One of them was blind from one eye due to him, in fact. Flambeau (my german shepperd) developed a healthy respect for him rather fast as well.

However, he is not what I would call an average cat for europe in the middle ages. More like 3 times the size et al. Trianoma (average, common cat) is more in line with a medieval cat, I think even if I think she must be rather big if she was compared to a medieval cat.

An average cat is the model of the example cat in the published material. Bigger and way meaner cats are perfectly possible (andf they MUST exist, in fact) but they are not the average cat out there. Nicholas was not an average cat and he could handle most stuff that you threw at him. Trianoma wouldn't (except she is so mean that he would drink my blood if she heard me).

So, trhis rant means that I still think that an average fox would be bigger than an average cat in the middle ages. I agree with the "scrawny little, underfed bastards" definition for cats there.