The issue is something of scale. It's not really a school if you retain one-on-one instruction, is it? I mean not in the sense of a school/university of the medieval period. You're just doing a standard apprenticeship, perhaps with fostering apprentices through some formal agreements by the members of the "school." No, you don't have to have a breakthrough, but the school does nothing different if you don't have a breakthrough. If the goal is to crank out 5 or 10 apprentices every year (when the first class graduates, and thereafter), and make it something of a steady stream, you can't do it very easily with just a few instructors. You're still bottlenecked at opening the Arts and how many instructors you can devote to the process, so 5-10 instructors are necessary just for opening the Arts every single year. Then you need books or more instructors.
Edit: you obviously don't need 5-10, as an magus can open up more than one student per year, but there is an effective bottleneck here, nonetheless, and what's being setup is more of a conveyor belt system of apprenticeship, rather than a school.
Uhh, what? Apprentices serve 3 seasons for 1 season of instruction under the standard model. It's not clear to me what you're proposing here. 1 for 1 service for teaching?
There's teaching of Arts, there's teaching of the Hermetic Virtues and spells. It's explicit that Arts have to be taught one-on-one, and while I can't remember seeing anything that says spells and Virtues must be taught one-on-one, I think it's reasonable that they are, especially without a breakthrough.
Depends upon a number of factors, to be sure. Still, a prudent school would seek to minimize these interruptions in the learning process, nonetheless. A school in Normandy, hah, it would be constantly raided, and the members would probably have countless WW declarations, because Tytalus.
I love this method of class selection. I think its perfect. The use of thematic groups for classes (with each having multiple Abilities or Arts to choose from) is a perfect way to allow modular growth despite sameness of XP gain. In fact after a previous discussion a while ago (I do love the School of Magic idea and see it beneficial more than negative) I am pretty sure I looked at your game for inspiration and ideas as my system looks pretty similar to yours. Though I was broader in course selection and didn't list professor or time, hehe.
But yes this way of doing things sounds perfect. It gives options but also structure and organization. Which is what a school needs. I would make it three semesters per year, rather than two. I also added a bit of Latin practice per semester automatically, as well as some Exposure XP to let students have some freedom, in addition to Spells XP as an addition. The fourth season is Adventure season, no matter what adventurers students have during the other, it is understood in the fourth season.
On the years of the school I was going to go with the origional 15. But then I had the whole idea of the Theban Tribunal only giving the Scholae Magicae permission to do this if by the time of the next Tribunal meeting (7 years later) they could prove the worthiness of the place. Which means in the first 7 years they have to divide their attention between teaching and getting students prepared (no pressure) while also making sure they gained enough political support from the magi of Thebes to actually get approved. From a game perspective I figured I would come up with a list of important magi that need to be placated and give them a list of things they want in order to give their approval. I haven't done the work (of course) but I figure this would represent certain tasks, events, research, and operations.
I do like the idea that even after graduating from the school as a full magus the student agrees to a one year internship with a higher magus. Its considered acceptable and it will boost the approval rate.
I could also see having it that some students just join in the school at first, with no previous master. While other students are actually official apprentices of a master who loans them to the school for training as a sort of fosterage. These individuals have certain requirmements they must meet as per their master's requests, but in general are considered normal students.
The idea is that to be a student in the school their Gift must be opened using the refined technique of the school. Its the only way to allow multiple students without the Parma being in close proximity to each other without hating each other.
On Boni snatching I just say don't let random Bonisagus that can't be trusted into the school itself. Or if they have to be welcomed them make the visitors only go to a special area where students cannot go. OR have Bonisagus professors make sure that they are present so they can use their status as a member of the House to impede what random magus might do. Most schools, heck most Covenants, don't let random magi move about willy nilly with no restriction so I don't see why this place should.
Personally, I would downplay the fear of this. And then out of nowhere when players are looking for adventure have a magus come in and declare patronage of a person which leads to some interesting but directly delt with drama. Its not something that would be focused on except on when it happens. For the story!
We have to remember that in Mythic Europe the age of 17/18 is full adult as far as the culture of the world sees it. These aren't children rather they are considered fully mature members of society. I also think that if the school has them go through Gauntlet then they are full magus, and its not really something that can be discussed since a magus has the right to declare when their apprentices are ready. I'm pretty sure getting Redcap approval isn't that hard to get. ("Hey Redcaps, you may come to the school at will and make use of our facilities without cost to yourself! Also, the covenant owned dock in Candia city itself is a free port of call for you, stop by, rest a moment, all on us!")
When it comes to the future there are so many different ways to go about doing it. I figure if they play their cards right and prepare and stuff and get their support they will be able to have the movers and shakers approve of it and stuff.
Of course an intereting thing is that one year later is the Grand Tribunal, which could lead to some interesting Order-wide discussion on the new school that exists in the deep wilds of Candia.
I am all for intrigue and worry and chaos and stuff. But I am also for looking at the setting as a little lighter and brighter than others seem to look at it. This isn't the World of Darkness (which is a great game and I own a lot of books), this is Mythic Europe. It doesn't need to be that dark and dreary and gritty and grimdark and without hope and all attempts at making a school will fail and such.
Now I am not saying that is what all of you think, but I see a lot of "everything will fail as elders hate it" rather than this could be a potential plot seed issue and here are ways that it could be worked around or solved or made interesting. I love the discussion, I really do, but its hard to comment on stuff when a lot of it is "it will fail cause the powerful will find nothing good in it".
In order to 'change the Order' in any significant fashion, you have to brave the politics of the Order in an active fashion. Want a magical school to survive? You have to go and convince the Tribunal that it's good and needed, despite tradition. Magi try to do this all the time.
Changing systems is inherently difficult, establishing a school for Hermetic Apprentices is no different, since it's a change to a system.
I don't offer up my comments intending to be negative. I offer them up, because within the context of Ars Magica, the Order of Hermes as it is written, a school is a significant change, and that change will have people who resist it. Or should, if it's a vibrant, dynamic environment. I had to adjust the political system within Ars, and I had to have a significant portion of the Order supporting the school, in my saga. I tried to address all of the concerns that knowledgeable players would have about changes to the setting to try and shoot down their arguments on why it wouldn't work. I wasn't perfect, but I tried really hard to create an environment where it wouldn't interfere with a player's suspension of disbelief. Players' belief in the setting is, in large part based on the canon. As ezzelino pointed out, much better than I did, you can change things all you want, but if you make a major change, such as this, you need to address other necessary changes, too.
Wizard's Wars won't be declared. Well, why not, what happened to create that situation? Is there that much military muscle?
Boni-snatching won't be allowed, how? Bonisagus shows up outside, knows the name of an apprentice and claims him. Writes letters that are delivered and confirmed receipt by Redcap. Apprentice is legally his, and the school is denying him his property...
A school is not necessarily a mass-production method. A school focused on producing better trained magi, in the traditional time, is a school nonetheless.
My model has teachers presenting lectures to apprentices for at least a season of the year and trained in Arts by experts for optimal education. I'm not prioritizing large numbers. I'm also assuming that the Academic Covenant would teach young companions.
Oh, here I applied my bias that an apprentice is obligated to a minimum of at least one season of service in an academy covenant. Overly compressed shorthand. Sorry!
More realistically, an apprentice does a variety of things for a master in the ordinary course of a year, including helping in the lab.
There's teaching of Arts, there's teaching of the Hermetic Virtues and spells. It's explicit that Arts have to be taught one-on-one, and while I can't remember seeing anything that says spells and Virtues must be taught one-on-one, I think it's reasonable that they are, especially without a breakthrough.
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Here again, overly compressed shorthand.
It is not clear to me what teaching constitutes training for purposes of satisfying the master's obligation. Is teaching Magic Theory training? Is any training sufficient? If my mage is a weaver, and teaches his apprentice weaving, is that sufficient training for a year?
I imagine that any training should suffice for purposes of a Tribunal case - Redcaps do not teach Arts to their apprentices, after all. If an apprentices master says that a subject is vital, other magi have no say in this, even if the master seems to be teaching something useless. It is not for a mage of Bonisagus to say the teachings of a Criamon mage are useless.
Accordingly, any so long as an apprentice gains training from the effort of the master (even through tuition), the apprentice has received their due.
Where are all these Gifted youngsters comming from? Is it the "If you build it, they will come"-theory? Because i'm more used to (slight) infighting over who gets to have an apprentice, rather than how to teach all of these applicants.
What's the gain? More members of the Order? Great! More rivals for my Vis sources, more magi I have devote time to keep track of. House Tremere might want this[sup]1[/sup] but why would anyone else?
Plot point: A magus who develops a suite of Gift-locating spells and enchantments for Redcaps and minions, and employs them to ferret out every last potential apprentice.
You have a good point. The Order surely misses some, but how many is unclear.
Some will have this opinion. Certainly it obviously would increase competition for books, lab space, vis, and other resources, at least in the short term.
Others will point to increasing the population of magi as so obviously a good thing that it scarcely bears explanation - it leads to increased research, more magi to defend the Order from the encroachments of mortals and threats of rival magi, removes them from those same rivals, and generally increase the weal of the Order. This will take some decades to realize, but obviously--
I suspect both opinions are correct, although factors like availability of vis and involvement of the Order in mortal matters will tend to spin the matter.
I'm probably dense, but why is this obvious? And why is this obvious to a medieval thinker?
Increased research, perhaps. But even now, by far most of the (really interesting) research is done by very few magi (IME). By far the most simply extrapolate from known basics, and do nothing we didn't already fundamentally know. Once we have the Pilum of Fire, the Ball of Abyssmal Flame is not a great invention, it's just a different application of the same principles. And even if it was, wouldn't this research only be relevant if they are spread? The idea that trade is always good and that knowledge like this is always for sale/to be shared is most certainly not medieval. If I recall the fechtbücher of the 1300-1500's correctly (and I may not), they were intentionally obscure, so that only those already initiated into their secrets would understand them.
More magi to defend the Order? Here you appear to assume that the Order would strongly cooperate. Why? House Tremere probably, but many others? The Tytalii and Verditii explicitly have adversarial relations within their own houses, and the Jerbitons are perhaps as likely to have strong ties to the encroaching mortals as to their 'brothres' within the Order. And speaking of encroaching mortals, the more magi there are, the more conflicts are likely to erupt, no? Will more magi mean more Covenants? Then there will be more conflicts with mundanes, as well as conflicts within the Order for the choicest aurae. If these magi stay in roughly the same number of covenants, now much larger, more conflicts internally are effectively garantueed, and there will still be more magi, liable to provoke conflict with the mundanes whenever they go out the door.
Defending against Rival Magi? What rival magi?!
To me, the advantages of having more magi are not obvious.
I generally assume that magi willing to take an apprentice can find one, and that many Gifted people never get Hermetic instruction (thus the Hedge traditions). Redcaps certainly keep an eye out for potential apprentices, but they're hardly engaged in systematic searches for them. The real issue, of course, is not finding a Gifted child, but finding one that suits both you and your magic. House Jerbiton generally chooses Gentle Gifted apprentices, for example, and House Bonisagus wants only the brightest. Merinitae want the fey touched, and some magi are looking for even more exotic virtues.
It's usually obvious to a position holder that their position is right, proper, moral, and opposing or conflicting positions are wrong, immoral, deviant, and perverse. It's perfectly obvious that [my social position] will lead to [wonderful things], whereas [other position] will lead to [ruin].
To me, it seems clearly obvious that the Order overall benefits from better trained apprentices gauntleting with an education and training similar to a third-year mage (or however it works out). To others it may be perfectly clear that these lazy, no-good, ignorant so-called better trained jackanapes will be the ruin of all we elder magi have worked for, steal our hard-won vis, molest faeries, incite the wrath of mortals, deal with devils, and hoard the best books!
As for "What rivals?" Why, don't let the seeming domination of the Order lull you to sleep! THEY are out there, just waiting for their chance! The Order has never let a little thing like lack of evidence stop it from being a bit paranoid.
