Apprentice to whom?

Quite. Just that B, the Ex Misc, will have to show that he is the master of deceased A's apprentice before setting such a gauntlet.

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Realistically there are three steps to becoming a full magus- 1) passing a gauntlet, 2) swearing the oath and 3) learning the parma magica. The gauntlet must be set by the master, but realistically B could simply claim that A established a gauntlet before they left and B witnessed the apprentice pass the gauntlet- for example if they were close to gauntlet anyways and A was afraid C would claim the apprentice they could have set a gauntlet of "outlive me" nd voila, the apprentice passed.
The key question is what happens at various stages if the process is then determined to be invalid- if an apprentice has sworn the oath and not learned parma this is a relatively minor issue- the are returned to apprenticeship. If they have learned parma and the oath is not valid then whomever taught them could be marched, and if the apprentice doesn't somehow swear a valid oath very very quickly they are going to be hunted down as well. If the oath was valid but the guantlet was not (because not the parens) then the order would probably charge whomever "passed" them illegally of depriving the ex-apprentice of magical power by cutting short their training, and probably pass a fine of vis books, etc. to the ex-apprentice.

For some reason I thought you needed at least one other witness to the Swearing of the Oath apart from the parens. Though where I got that from I can no longer say. Including both a Redcap and a Quaesitore would be optimal.

But can a magus refuse to witness the swearing of the Oath? ie the Oath is sworn in front of magus X, but magus X will deny witnessing it. Was officially not there, or not listening, or some such.

It is just logical. There can't be a valid introduction into the Order of Hermes without witnesses and some ceremony. Specific rules may depend on the Tribunal and its peripheral Code: see GotF Voting in the Rhine Tribunal p.27 for an explicit ruling.


If there are people running around, of whom nobody knows for sure whether they are apprentices or sodales, this is a pain in the ass not only of Quaesitores, but of every single magus. Do they have a voting sigil? Who knows and can identify it? Who responds to the Order for them? What happens if I deprive one of these of magical power? Could they challenge me to certamen? Can they declare Wizard's War? And so on for a few pages.

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Its obviously sensible to have witnesses, for all those reasons. Or to show up at Tribunal (or at least visit a few other Covenants) after being sworn in. But I'm not sure its a requirement. And I can easily see some magi or groups - House Ex Misc again - being slack about it. If your sodales at your Covenant know, that's good enough for most purposes.

By HoH:TL p.53 a formal ceremony is required for an apprentice to join the Order.

Tribunals may flesh out this ceremony, and might perhaps allow it just between master and apprentice. But they would set themselves up for scorn and derision: "Well, he might be a magus from Freedonia Tribunal, but you know how these are made there ... :rofl:"

But a formal ceremony wasn't what he was referring to. I can have a formal ceremony with my apprentice and I, and if we are in the Novgorod tribunal that might well suffice. If we are in the Rhine or Normandy it most certainly will not. It does however mean that a Tytalus apprentice who kills their parens will have a few other challenges before they are considered a full mage- they have passed their gauntlet but need to find someone to swear them in and teach them parma magica.

If a troupe wants that they of course can. Certainly so, because there is very little 5th edition material about the Novgorod Tribunal and they can start from scratch.

If they look at The Dragon and the Bear (1999) p.102ff, they find the Tribunal founded between 1006 and 1008 following the pacific effort of Patrick of Durham, a Quaesitor, from three covenants consisting of magi mainly from well organized Rhine, Thebes and Transsylvanian Tribunals. There were no solitary magi then, but scattered covenants trying to survive and maintain unified politics towards the rest of the Order. Threatened covenants were abandoned, its members moving to other covenants of the Tribunal.

These covenants had certainly no reason to loosen rules and cause confusion about membership in the Order and the Tribunal, and by sheer necessity had enough magi in each of their covenants to not introduce any "formal ceremony with my apprentice and I" to create magi.

Most of the analysis that has been posted has been looking at this from a de jurie perspective. But you said this was set in the Stonehenge Tribunal and that Mage C was from Blackthorn. Given the environment described in the Heirs to Merlin book, I would find it very unlikely that Blackthorn would push to keep the apprentice.

Blackthorn is known for being a secretive tribunal. It seems unlikely that the covenant as a whole would support bringing in a mostly trained apprentice, whose former master was killed by a magus from Blackthorn. There is too great a chance of betrayal. Given that a large number of covenents are going to vote against Blackthorn on principle, if there is any kind of legal issue, I don't see the issue being pressed.


Not quite. There is a bit of a complicated backstory.

Mage A and Mage C come from another Tribunal. A special ruling from that Tribunal ruled that an amicus of Mage C deserved reparations from Mage A, though was required to negotiate for the exact amount, for the damage blamed on (the indirectly responsible) Mage A, with Mage C recognised as the proxy to do this. But by the time that special ruling was made, Mage A had already been kicked out of their former House and had travelled to Stonehenge to call in favours from Mage B to be adopted into Ex Miscellanea.

Mage C tried to enforce the ruling for reparations made by the other Tribunal. Negotiations (in the form of angry and rude letters as Mage C tried to pin down Mage A) broke down to the point Wizard War was declared.
Mage C is determined to get these reparations "owed" (something about honour and dignity), and his negotiations/demands had always included a demand for the apprentice.
Mage C is related to some of the magi of Blackthorne, and can apparently call on them for favours.

So we have a whole host of issues here:

  1. a owes C an unspecified debt in tribunal 1
  2. they are in tribunal 2 where the wizard war is completed without the apprentice being nabbed
  3. the apprentice has apparently sworn the oath though not in the usual manner but (from the first post) it still needs to be witnessed.

So everyone agrees that the apprentice's oath has not been witnessed, the apprentice is not yet a magus.
The claim to the apprentice extends from claims made and confirmed in another tribunal, which were non-specific.
If the Tribunal rules for Magus C the matter is settled. If they rule for Magus B there is a possibility that Tribunal 1 may raise the issue at a Grand Tribunal, though what they might ask and what the outcome might be is uncertain.
If the covenant witnesses the oath then either the tribunal will confirm that the oath is valid or it will not, based on the uncertainty over who the parens is.
If the apprentice is taught Parma Magica and the oath was not valid, apprentice and magus B both get marched (technically the apprentice just gets hunted and killed)
If the oath is considered valid then in principle magus B could still be charged with depriving both magus C- if it decided that the apprentice was his when B guantleted him, and the now ex-apprentice of magical power.
The wise decision would be to summon a guernicus and refer all of this to the tribunal and not witness the oath.
Which is, of course why the players should in fact witness the oath, making the worst possible decision and setting themselves up for a multitude of stories in the future.

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So we are in Stonehenge! I didn't know.

In the most recent book about the Stonehenge Tribunal, Heirs to Merlin (1999), we find on p.116f Tribunals:

After issues concerning external relations are dealt with, apprentices are admitted as magi, and the tribunal is formally closed.

The only fixed point, in effect, is that all apprentices are admitted as magi at the same time.

Establishing other ways to turn apprentices into magi is your decision, of course. Often SGs introduce them to make magi in between Tribunal meetings.