assistance in Certamen

Games Discussion Ars Magica
8

The fact that Certamen is a magic ritual working in its own highly codified way, means, I think, that you have a lot of leeway in houseruling away every complication which you do not want to cover in your narrative.

Certamen may very well be set up to work in its own pocket of the twilight void or the magic realm, where only the two contestants can enter. Even if the contestant carries his familiar and his talisman, it does not mean that they enter the magic pocket with him. Quite plausibly they simply cannot be used without another Hermetic breakthrough.

I kind of like such solution because it will save the troupe the time to debate how a given effect may affect the Certamen.

I kind of dislike the solution because my basic assumption that all activities benefit from the familiar cords. Not beneitting from the Golden core would be pretty harsh.

It is obviously possible to rule that familiars and/or talismans join the magus into the certamen space, while magic devices and other people do not. That gives scope to invent novel magic effects specifically for the purpose. And it also means that leaving the talismans and familiars out of sight, breaking many but not all magic benefits, may be part of the duelling conditions.

When it comes to people, I am sure certamen is frequently fought with a lot of spectators, but they, not even the apprentice, are magically linked to the contestants. They can attempt to distract the contestants, but I think most people would consider that to be cheating. I would assume that they could not magically affect the duel without a Hermetic breakthrough or equivalent.

An equally important take on your question is of course what is legal, given that it is possible, and what is cheating. Now, cheating is a very interesting story hook, and I think rules must be interpreted to make the hook work as well as possible. It would be very interesting to see the hook and the interpretation spelled out together ...

In short, I do not think careful reading of the rules is going to give any useful insight, but poetic analysis of the story is.

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9

I don't know if the power of a Spirit Familiar work in a subtle way and with Range greater than Touch but they have the Shared Fatigue Power that let them spend Might Points when the Magus would lose Fatigue. That may help in the certamen.

10

I don't like the idea of certamen taking place in a special magic place preventing external interferences. I prefer it to be open to the possibility of cheating, as it permits more interesting stories.

As far as I know we do not have explicit certamen regulations, so it may even be a peripheral code thing and subject to some tribunal differences ?

What about having an intangible tunnel to one of the two contestants and using it to help or hinder him or her ? An alternative version of the gift of vigor could be a virtually bottomless source of fatigue for one of the two contestants with a sufficiently well prepared third party.

What if one of the two magi is using a ligature from Arts & Academe p69 ? Would it work ? How specific would it need to be ? Would it be considered cheating ?

The help of someone else can also be indirect, as knowing the best/worst arts or the best time to challenge an opponent can also be a great help.

11

Well, let's take an effect granting a magus a +1 Stamina bonus.

What's not clear to me is if you think
a) it should be banned outright
b) it's ok, but only if cast by the magus who competes in certamen
c) it's ok, if produced by some magical resource of the magus (e.g. a talisman, familiar, apprentice)
d) it's ok no matter what.

One thing to consider is that someone may have such an effect permanently enchanted in his familiar bond, or created by some Item of Virrtue embedded in his flesh via Blending with Substance (TMRE p.69), so I think it's difficult to go for a) or b), At the same time then, it seems strange one should go for c) and not d).

As I said, I suspect this is a somewhat murky point in Hermetic law & tradition too. The fact that you can generally ascertain which magical effects are active on a magus if you commit the crime of magical scrying suggests that there may well be a lot of stuff going on that would be perceived as ... iffy if brought to light, but which is never brought to light and hence never explicitly regulated.

12

Add to this list the distinction between casting it before or during the Certamen.

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13

Or have a Reginaebacatus Discipulus Tremeris write at the very end of the 9th century a booklet about how to properly do Certamen, with all the fine point explained: and lo, it was well enough written to become the authority in most Tribunals.
And then write these rules for your saga.

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14

I've always thought Certamen would be a negotiation. Anyone can refuse Certamen.

"I challenge you to Certamen".
"Not really interested".
"What are you, a coward?".
"Name calling is it? Are you willing to risk a wizards war after the Certamen? Play with your pretty lights if you want to. If I have a problem with someone, I will have a proper fight.[a pregnant silence] Yeah, that's what I thought."

Obviously the above exchange would be for wizards of similar power and one has a degree of aggro. If someone wants to bully young magi, they can, and the young magi have to take it or call in strong friends.

I've always considered the Certamen rules as a starting point.

Say a 30 year old is taking on a 60 year old. The 30 year old could offer, I'll only Certamen if I choose the technique and the form. You have the right to refuse the form choice once and must accept the technique.

That may well make it fair. A 30 year old taking on a 60 year old for anything meaningful is insane otherwise.

Anything could be negotiated in my opinion. Accepting preparatary spells, or banning them, accepting existing effects, or requiring the acceptance to use Vim spells to suppress existing effects for the duration of the Certamen. Everything could be acceptable, and everything could be removed from the table also.

I would consider the general thought, unless explicitly stated in the Certamen negotiation, any spell or affect of less than moon duration is off the table.

15

While anyone can refuse a Certamen duel, refusal means your challenger wins automatically by the standard rules.

16

Was it "automatically"? (don't have my books in front of me)

My understanding is that Certamen is similar to the Magus equivalent of an honourable combat by knights. Refusing Certamen brings your honour into question, which is usually bad news if the issue gets called in front of a tribunal meeting.

OTOH Certamen bullying is frowned upon, if not punished, in many places, so when the contestants are obviously unequal, it is probably wise for the "bully" to bide their time, and use Guile and Intrigue to maneuver the "victim" into a circumstance where the "bully" is "forced" to declare (or even accept) a Certamen challenge as the least dishonourable course of action. I think of it as a Western where the master gunfighter reacts when the other guy draws on him first (as it appears to witnesses).

17

If the proposed stakes are out of balance one can refuse and would likely have a legal leg to stand on but if they are balanced (or close to it) a refusal is legally the same as a loss.

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18

That was what happened the one time Certamen came up in our saga. We played the Hunters Games from 4ed Faerie Stories set in Hibernia. The PCs preferred to insult the faerie queen by not attending her games again to accepting the challenge from the senior Tremere. Good choice probably, but a dangling story hook either way.

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19

Quite.

Of course, the challenger needs witnesses, a Quaesitorial Endorsement or such to prove his victory to the Tribunal.
Also the Certamen lost must be legal: its stakes certainly must be balanced, and (after 865) not impinge upon the rights and duties of the loser as an Hermetic magus, also those defined by pertinent Peripheral Code.

20

It occurs to me this thread is drifting to become a generic Certamen ettiquette thread, rather than investigating a mechanics edge-case.

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21

That said, if maga Alix is challenged by magus Bobus at certamen, instead of refusing, she can always propose outlandish conditions under which she's very likely to win. Bobus at that point might disagree... and Alix challenges him to a meta-certamen do decide the conditions under which the primary certamen is fought. If Bobus declines the meta-certamen, then Alix can impose the conditions she wants on the primary certamen. If Bobus accepts, then Alix challenges him to a meta-meta certamen to define the conditions of the meta-certamen.... and so on.

Basically, Alix has the choice of stalling forever, or getting the primary certamen run under her conditions. To be fair, Bobus might bring the case up at the next Tribunal. At which point the entire issue will probably be won by political skill rather than by certamen :slight_smile:

22

That would be another reason for the opus of Reginaebacatus Discipulus Tremeris to find followers, right? :nerd_face:

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23

Since the whole point of Certamen (at least initially) was for two magi to settle a dispute without bringing it to court or going straight to WW, and given it's central position in House Tremere strength, it's likely that Tremere himself developed a set of accepted rules as OneShot is proposing. These rules were probably iterated by the later generations, but wouldn't be too different from the original, I suppose.

They should be something that can be easily adjudicated as "fair" by any two magi, even in the absence of other witnesses (that it was a fair duel is something that can be subjected to Quaesitorial Endersement at Tribunal if later required).

What constitutes "fairness" also brings a few other cases not discussed above. For example, a challenge to a wounded magus is fair? To a tired one? The Certamen must be conducted right after the challenge was issued, or should a day be agreed upon? There is probably a "standard" etiquette to be followed, even if we are not agreeing on one. =9

I'm inclined to say that everything that is allowed on a Wizard's War is valid on Certamen, just because if not, it is sometimes more advantageous to use WW to settle issues. So magic items, familiars and apprentices, if these can somehow help, are fair play; another magus intervening is not. This isn't my final opinion yet, I shall think a bit more... And this is probably not applicable to some specific cases.

24

How about grogs? To distract the opponent and make them fail concentration?

25

My impulse is to asnwer no, but it seems this contradicts what I said about Wizards War...

Then I'll update my opinion as follows: do you consider a grog to be part of the magus magical power? Anything that is part of a magus magical power should be allowed. Anything that is not should be prohibited.

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26

I don't agree with the premise that Wizard's War may be preferable. Wizard's War is a serious investment of time, and a serious risk of death or injury too. Certamen can be settled before midday with bounded stakes.

But thanks for your consistent and playable take on it, even if my take remains different.

27

That seems unlikely, given that certamen canonically follows different rules in different circumstances (in terms e.g. of Art veto, or of selection of Technique and Form) and that canonically there are disputes on the legality of this or that technique.

I would add that the rest of the Order would probably look at some Tremere proposal on certamen rulles with extreme distrust, after the domination. I can definitely see the Tremere having their own rules from when they duel among themselves though.