assistance in Certamen

The guideline is just the normal, vanilla Hermetic one; and there's nothing in the description that says Mutantum magic contributes anything beyond Tethering, Harnessing, and Boosting... so if there's one thing that comes out clearly of that spell is that vanilla Hermetic magic can replicate it beyond those three things.

You have literally (HoH:TL p.101)

The Mutantes design spells that have unusual variants on standard magic built into their effects, and only character with the power to perform that kind of magic due to an appropriate Virtue can cast them.

But there is nowhere a statement, that by just removing Boosted , Harnessed and Tethered every Mutantum spell just becomes vanilla.

OneShot, as I've often pointed out, you cite stuff out of context to distort its meaning.
Anyone reading the entire section will see that your quote is misleading.

Anyway, as usual, I'm forced to put an end to our debate to avoid spamming the thread even further. Feel free to PM me if you want to continue the discussion!

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They literally list off the qualities that Mutantum Magic can add explicitly several times, and those are them. Just because you leave them out of your quote doesn't mean the statement actually covers more like you claim. That's just misappropriating a quote.

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I think it's just safer to interpret that the spell is designed in such a way that those fatigue levels can only be ignored while on a journey, thereby negating the spell's potential for certamen entirely.

As that contradicts the spell, I think it's safer and far more consistent with canon to interpret that active magic is generally not accepted in Certamen. That still allows fighting in Heartbeast form, as that is not active magic.

Even if you rule out that spell, do all magi duel by shapeshifting into wolf or similar form (Characteristic boosts plus extra Fatigue) with Endurance of the Berserkers running? If all this isn't how you imagine Certamen playing out nearly all the time, just assume active magic is generally not accepted.

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I find it hard to believe that Bjornaer using their Heartbeast form (and Hermetic Shaapeshifters using Shapeshifting) would be allowed to enter a certamen in non-human form, but Hermetic magi using Hermetic spells would not.

Yet that is a minor quibble. The main issue with forbidding active magics is that for some magi it may be impossible to turn those off. Would you bar those magi from certamen altogether?

You certainly can allow active magics. Given that time has passed, people will have learned the tricks. There are animal forms that give only bonuses for Certamen. There are others that give some bigger bonuses with possible penalties. And then there are spells like The Tireless Flight. These spells are not difficult. So unless all these Int +3 magi are stupid, Certamen will almost always be fought in animal form with spells that totally mess up big parts of Certamen. I'm just pointing out what will happen if active magic is allowed since we know Int +3 magi are not stupid.

As for things that cannot be turned off, I'm sure LR would be allowed (as is PM of course). You could submit to InVi to show an active effect isn't an issue or get someone to duel for you. Or commonly just PeVi to stop the effect temporarily. It's your choice to get that effect in the first place, so you still make the choice about Certamen.

The funny part begins when you have someone who has gone through the Transforming the Body part of the Becomong mystery. Or similar.
No fatigue or fatigue levels. And this is not an effect that can be turned off.

I think that the cleanest solution would be simply to house-rule as follows:

While the strength of a certamen's phantasm is determined by the traits of the magus, the phantasm is not the magus. Thus, the phantasm's strength is determined by the traits of the natural, human form of the magus, regardless of what magical or mundane effects he might be currently subject to. By the same token, the phantasm's strength is unaffected by any wound penalties or by any fatigue lost (or regained) outside the duel - though phantasmal fatigue accrued during certamen adds to any a magus was suffering from as soon as the certamen ends. Of course, being wounded or otherwise distracted can simply break the concentration of a duelist and snap him out of certamen.

In the absence of such a house rule, I believe the cleanest solution would be to simply allow everything, unless negotiation bars some possibilities. I expect magi who always squeeze every little advantage they can into a certamen would eventually just gain a poor reputation for pettiness, creating an incentive to avoid such behaviour except in extreme situations.

If we look at real duels that were still fought as little as a century ago, two things are apparent. First, there were some "general" rules (e.g. the challenged could choose the weapon) but they were subject to renegotiation, and all other conditions of the duel were often negotiated in excruciating detail. Second, people did try to squeeze in little advantages, but not quite every little advantage they could. They did not dress in garish, flapping,, distracting garments. They turned sideways when being shot at to reduce the target area ... but they did not crouch to really try to minimize it, nor did they wear bullet-proof protections for crucial areas (e,g, helmets or metal doublets).

That said, I really dislike that changing into an animal form should make a magus a more effective duelist!

I've played that as they don't have the Fatigue to burn to put energy into the Certamen to keep it going, so either they use Confidence or lose. Or if they've gone far enough they can just have a non-Faerie Familiar and burn Might Pool as Fatigue.

Updates and changes in my thought process.

Certamen is meant to be a non-violent, non-lethal way to ascertain whose magical prowess is higher. It's a contest to measure who is the stronger magus. Let's see what is clearly stated about Certamen.

From AM5 p.89:

Certamen (...) has formal restrictions to keep it from disrupting the unity of the Order.
The most important is that certamen cannot be used to overrule a Tribunal, require a violation of the Code, or require a magus to overlook a violation of the Code.

So, it's clear that Certamen has restrictions that are not stated. These might relate to the formal proceedings themselves or to the kind of matters that can be solved by Certamen. There are examples of both in the 5e books.

HoH:TL p.55, on the insert "The Legality of Certamen", brings a bit more of background:

In the early days of the Order the culture of distrust and violence was still strong. Many (...) rejected the equality of Tribunal justice (...) Wizard War risked a spiraling cycle of killings.

Tremere and Bonisagus presented their certamen ritual (...) Guernicus was
alarmed (...) he insisted that it be limited in scope, lest it render the Tribunal process irrelevant. However, as there were no restrictions on Wizard War, Tremere and others argued that any restriction on certamen would undermine its purpose.

I understand that at the beginning of the Order Certamen would be unrestricted both in scope and allowed resources, as long as it can still be framed as a dispute between two magi. Otherwise, there is risk that magi might prefer to solve things by Wizard's War, which "undermines its purpose".

Of course, basic conditions for Certamen validity would have been debated and presented by Bonisagus, Tremere, Guernicus and others, but there couldn't have been too many restrictions. Again: I'm inclined to say that anything that goes on a Wizard's War goes on Certamen, at least at the beginning of the Order. But Certamen ceases to have legal value in 848, after the Sundering, and then (again from HoH:TL p.55):

At the Grand Tribunal of 868 AD , after much consultation with House Guernicus, the certamen ruling was amended and reinstated. Certamen could not be used to defy a Tribunal judgment, make a magus break the Code or ignore a Code violation.

Here we are back to the restrictions stated in AM5 p.89. I'm sure House Guernicus brought several restrictions not stated, and I think they shouldn't be stated in game terms, so that each troupe can decide what works best for them.

Fast forward another 350 years, most rules probably won't have changed much since 868. But the way Certamen is viewed by magi has changed. Ezzelino made a comparison with dueling rules, but I'd rather compare it with chess (since it's also non-lethal... usually). Nowhere in the rules there is any provision against throwing captured pieces at your opponent's face, but I'm sure no one considers this to be proper behavior during a game.

Certamen at 1220 is not only a duel to solve a legal problem, it's also a game of etiquette. Sometimes it's mostly a game of etiquette, as in the case of Certamen for Love (as sport), and HoH:TL implies that heavily on the description of Certamen in the Tremere chapter. Also about that, AtD gives an explicit ruling for duelists for love in p.20: Duelists for love may not cast spells or use items to affect the duel’s outcome, or permit observers to do the same. So it seems that, at least in "Certamen as a Direct Proxy for War" (as AtD phrases it), casting spells and using items is allowed in the Transylvanian Tribunal.

(On the other hand TCI p.26 states that "the niceties of certamen apparent on the continent do not apply in Hibernia" and there are no social rules around who, when or how often can challenge. In Thebes, Certamen itself is viewed in a bad light (TSE p.27). Each Tribunal will have it's own rules and special cases.)

Now, my personal view on the matter is still ongoing change after thinking a bit and reading other's opinions. But based on what I said above, my current iteration is as follows:

Certamen is a non-violent contest of magical power, based on hermetic arts, between two magi. As such, the key questions about what is allowed or not in Certamen revolve about:

  1. Is this still considered a duel between two magi?
  2. What constitutes part of a magus' magical power?

The first one can usually be answered by inference and observation, and the second one can usually be answered by the Code.

As such, on a "standard" Certamen, using items crafted by other magi or having other magi cast spells on you is a no go, since this means more than one magus is involved. Using vis is not forbbiden itself (since your capability of finding and using vis is also part of your hermetic power), but it might be a breach of etiquette (and disallowed on certain Tribunals or circunstances). Temporarily boosting yourself with spells prior to the duel is also usually a breach of etiquette (the duel is already about hermetic arts after all, so what are you trying to prove by winning in this way?), but permanent boosts are not (because this isn't a matter of foul play anymore, you are just a better magus).

Apprentices (and mundanes) would infringe the first question.
A familiar is pretty much part of a magus, and so infringe neither, but attacking the opponent is against the spirit of Certamen.
A talisman is also part of a magus, and is usually allowed (albeit useless in most cases).

Specific Tribunals can be more rigid or more lax, but in a general sense, nothing that wouldn't constitute "part of a magus magical power" will be allowed, and nothing that allows for more than one person, directly or indirectly, to participate. Again, depending on the case infractions on this could be seen as foul play; as breaches of etiquette, but not foul play; or even be allowed.

I also have one particular opinion regarding tireless duelists (be it through spells, virtues or anything else): if you can't tire, you can't lose, and if you can't lose, you can't really win (to make again a comparison with chess, having no king doesn't mean you can't lose, means you can't play). In such cases, if you are challenged to Certamen, the right answer is to find a duelist to fight in your interest (this is what Redcaps do).

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Well, this is a good catch. In fact, it seems to suggest that it's reasonably common in the Order, rather than a peculiarity of Transylvania.

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Not really, since other things that are also listed as not allowed include:
"Combine sexual intercourse with certamen."
"Fight while naked or drunk."

Somehow I don't think those are common anywhere.

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I think that's a bit much to read from that.

It does raise questions about whether this is something that actually occured in Transylvania that made the Tribunal add it into the peripheral code, or whether they perceive barbarian non-Tremere magi as likely to do this kind of stuff, and pre-emptively said "Not here". :smiley:

I would have to say that quote implies there is no automatic rule against using spells and items in normal Certamen. Though I suspect there might be regional Peripheral Code rulings, as well as negotiared terms for each Certamen duel.

Hence the implication it is possible the mechanics allows for assistance in Certamen (as so many people have suggested means), but it may be restricted by various social constructs.

It should be noted that both the peripheral code and customs matter here. A dishonourable break of customs is not punished, but one can end up paying dearly in trust and goodwill.

It really doesn't imply that, more likely the opposite. Look at the proxy for war part, and you'll see that Certamen as a proxy for war is notably more lenient than in other Tribunals. And then it's reined in for Certamen for love. And Certamen for love is the general standard Certamen in the Tribunal, proxy for war being a rarity. So this rule on spells and items is the standard in Transylvania but is given an exception in Transylvania if you do proxy for war. If this is the standard, why not elsewhere? But no vis is also standard in Transylvania, while it is permitted elsewhere, so elsewhere tend to be at least a little more open than the standard in Transylvania.