Automatic counterspelling talisman

[Berengar]

@Jabir

@One Shot

You appear to read "In other circumstances, the maga must work the Form out" as "In all other circumstances, the maga can work the Form out". I would disagree, and read it as "In other circumstances than clearly hearing and seeing Hermetic words and gestures, the maga must work the Form out".

Let's leave non-Hermetic effects out of the picture and look at the two paragraphs on AM5 pg. 83.

First,

If the caster is a Hermetic magus and is using words and gestures that she can hear and see, she may determine this automatically.

This part is clear. It's easy to determine Form when one can clearly hear and see Hermetic words and gestures, just as you say.

Then,

A Perception + Awareness roll may be needed to catch the details of the gestures, particularly if they are subtle.

But an Awareness roll is required if it's hard to see or hear them. Specifically, the Subtle Gestures casting condition is referenced. Clearly the author is taking into account the material in the Words & Gestures table table printed immediately about the paragraphs we're discussing.

Finally,

In other circumstances, the maga must work the Form out. A Perception + Awareness
roll against an Ease Factor of 15 minus the magnitude of the effect is needed.

This must refer to circumstances other than those covered by the above two items.

You still insist to read the text from ArM5 p.83 as an itemized list. But you give no reason why it should be one.

@Jabir

I suggest that this must include the circumstance of a Hermetic spell cast using the None modifiers from that table directly above that's already being considered by the author. There are no words or gestures to recognize, yet the target maga still has a chance via Awareness roll to make out the Form.

Under this reading of the rules, there must be a mechanism that magi are using other than seeing and hearing gestures and words.

And now you draw a conclusion from your assumption of an itemized list, which leads to a direct contradiction with

@"HoH:S p.107 [i

Exotic Casting (Minor, Hermetic)[/i] (underscore mine)"]The magus uses non-Hermetic methods to cast Hermetic spells. While he still needs to employ obvious ritual actions, these are not the same words and gestures taught as part of Magic Theory within the Order, and other magi who are unfamiliar with the magus’s tradition find it very hard to recognize which spell he is casting. Any attempt to determine the Form of his magical effect (ArM5, page 83) is made against an Ease Factor of 15, without the magnitude of the effect being subtracted from this Ease Factor as normal.

Exotic Casting reads

In other circumstances, the maga must work the Form out. A Perception + Awareness roll against an Ease Factor of 15 minus the magnitude of the effect is needed.

as referring to working out the Form of the spell being cast from words and gestures of the caster. So your assumption of an itemized list in the text is falsified.

Nothing new here: this was already explained less tediously and more concisely here and here. Can we now stop this boring carousel?

Cheers