True. This is why I highly recommend either inventing a similar InVi spell and mastering it with the Resistance option or inventing a CrVi spell like Shell of False Determinations and keeping it active (put it in the Binding effect).
Chris
This would have been a great idea, if the player wasn't on the thread!
Hmm...flogg that serf for his insolence. It doesn't exactly work like that. Binding the spirit into an item is a whole other matter than binding it into your person. Binding into an item, you get some protection but can't use the spirit's powers. Binding into the person, you can use the powers. You get some warping just from having the spirit bound to you, but the question here concerns whether/when you get warping using the spirits powers.
Thanks for chiming in. I'd prefer you defend your character concept than that I have to try to explain what you're going for.
I'm not sure what your point is. Saying, "I'm an infernalist, but I only use binding" is like saying "I'm a drug dealer, but only of heroin." Doesn't exactly get one off the hook.
The warping you get from being under the supernatural effect of having a bound spirit has definately been set in RAW, we have no dispute there and I have no intention of changing that. For that reason, I left it out of the OP and have ignored suggestions that it be modified with a house rule.
The question here is about powerful and constant supernatural effects. Per ArM5, these generate warping points, unless, for a powerful effect, the effect is designed by/for the user. The debate is about whether or not using a spirit's power counts as being designed by/for you. It really could be either, so, since there is no RAW answer, I'm trying to find the solution that neither makes your character overpowered related to other pcs and npcs nor hamstrings him unfairly.
Guys, please stop telling Max how he could be detected. You're only going to give him ideas on what to protect himself against. LOL
Send your ideas to me via pm, or wait for me to post a "how to detect an infernalist (off limits for my players)" thread. 
Well, this is one of those things that, IMO, is very much a function of the kinds of stories the player wants. By going down this path a player is telling me that they don't expect their character to be getting away with this stuf. So, the longer the player has been operating undiscovered, the worse the consequences. Increasing paranoia of being discovered should be a huge part of the concept. And again, the player should be prepared to have another magus come in at a later date.
Several things.
-
I always thought that there must be non-infernal versions of all the powers except ablating (that MUST be infernal). IMS we have changed it to allow non infernal summoners. Summoners are too much a cliché character not to allow them.
-
However, by the RAW, there aren't (except summoning). As such, if the SG and players want to play by the RAW, the ability is infernal as everybody has already said.
-
Forcing any kind of supernatural creature into an item or person against its will will be detected as slavery. Certainly angels being trapped and forced to perform for you might be seen as even more corrupt than having demons bound to you.
-
I don't think if this a change in essential nature. It is more a lifelong imprisonment than a change in nature as far as I can see. The spirit is bound, but is still a separate entity, right?
Obviously. As for the non-infernal summoners, I believe the intend is that non-infernal summoners bargain with the summoned entities, using sorcery to enslave them against their will is "evul" and som by definition infernal. I disagree with this, seeing it as somewhat anachronistic, but that appears to be the idea.
So true!
And ofcourse Infernal Goetic Arts can be used to affect spitits not of the infernal realm.
Ofcourse your Goetic Sorceror mght think to bind an Angel 
Agreed.
Perhaps. However, there is non-Infernal forcible binding of spirits in TMRE. This is why I tend to agree with your view.
Chris
I tend to disagree, for a simple reason.
These are very powerful. And thus tempting, as it should be.
If you don't need the Infernal for these, what's the point? It loses a lot of interest and potential... Unless you invent yet-more awesome powers to tempt your player with... 
Look for exemple all the infernal-related ideas this discussion has sparked. Drop it and you've just a discussion on warping.
You're not wrong. But isn't it more tempting when you know that bnding these spirits, it's not really infernal - it need not be anyway, that guy over there does it with faerie powers...
Besides, there' the magnitudes of tricks used to tempt:
Mundanes have no supernatural powers - just about any little trick could tempt many of them.
Magi... may use the value of their arts in place of these Goetic methods, if only they learn the basics of te methods. Really, it's mostly just a new use of Rego - perfectly fine, it really is 
In other words, I find temptations work much better when you can damn yourself with tiny steps rather than a single giant leap.
With all due respect (and maybe I fail to rightly understand you), but I was talking of Infernal temptation for magi, since this is the case there.
As it is, unless he has a delusion or is misled, the magi knows he's using an infernal power.
If he can have it as a magic power... well, of course, he may be commiting evil acts, just as the guy who uses POF to burn innocents.
But he does not commit himself to the infernal.
You can have your tiny steps. But these come before, with demonic help, maybe a few infernal blessings.
But these powers are the ultimate price, the one, bif tempting thing for magi, especially given the rego substitution.
If you allow them to just have these as magical powers, if you strip the infernal of every specificity that may make one chose it, how will your demons tempt them?
"Sorry, Mr Demon, I agree Binding is awesome, but I'll just join that Hermetic Summoners mystery cult who initiates it as a magical power* / enter a compact with that Faerie God**"?
For those who want non-infernal versions of these, these exist. And are less powerful. IMHO, by design. Because of the above 
- Now, this could be a good front for an infernaly-infested mystery cult that teaches infernal virtues and flaws to its members.
** Same thing, faerie version
1 Like
The misunderstanding may equally well have been on my part - no matter if we are on the same page now 
Why? We know there are minor uses of known arts that aren't part of the general curriculum, minor break throughs that you simply need explained to you so that you can integrate them into your own practices. Perhaps study with the nventor or perhaps a tractatus on said discovery.
So if a kindly elder Bonisagus offers to share some insghts with you, perhaps in order to have a second view into his own presentation, before introducing this method to the Order, will you turn it down?
Or perhaps this kindly mentor is long dead, but he wrote a book on the subject, a book you only now discover in a box somewhere?
Oh he knows he based it off of the techniques of some hedge magi of some description or other, but clearly this is just another application of Rego!
Why would he need to? Evil acts are enough to damn you.
Even commited infernalists can repent and be saved.
Sadly, they really aren't that exciting.
Remember that demons can lie perfectly (and therefore undetectably)?
Were I a demon, I'd prefer making sure a damned man thought he was holy.
A man who takes pride in how well he follows God will not repent of his ways - but pride is the sin that will net me his soul.
Plenty of examples exist in RL.
Oh yes!