Birds of a Flock: Bjornaer Stuff

Pavo returns with his grog via the portals, physically carrying the books in a sturdy bag.

(I assume the books are in Latin - please provide the titles and where they're from, so we can keep track and avoid duplicates)

I will be posting the changes and books you bought soon.
As for copying, I think I say somewhere that it is common courtesy not re-copying and disseminating sold books. Correct me if I am wrong?

What Cov says is that books are often sold under the Cow and Calf oath, i.e. that they not be copied, but I have never seen it described as common courtesy. In other words, I would assume that copying and traiding is ok if nothing was mentioned during the trade.

The Cow and Calf Oath usually applies to excellent books, but then such books are rarely sold. I would find it outright strange if the Cow and Calf applies to the primers/vain summæ, but rather reasonable if it applies to the excellent tractatus. Tremere. of course, are more likely fans of the Oath than Bjornaer :slight_smile:

Translation, on the other hand, is not quite the same kettle of fish. The translation is not a copy, and the vendor would rarely be able to produce a translation himself. Translation is AFAIK mentioned only in A&A which does not address the Cow and Calf or other conditions for copying. Personally, I would regard a translation as a new work. I would be surprised if Latin magi had actually thought of translation and worded the Cow and Calf Oath to cover it, but it is a house rule call ...

I am pretty sure it applies to translations too. In RL, If you take a book and translate it, you still need to follow copyright laws, right?
Assume that any work that has the name of its creator (and possibly his/her sigil/mark falls under cow and cowl.

Copyright is a rather modern invention. We are talking about Medieval RL. Modern copyright expires at some point, often 70 years after the death of the creator, so even if we apply modern law many books would be free to copy. I don't think we should go there :slight_smile:

Even if the Cow and Calf applies to translations, we may want to make translations for purely internal use and nobody will ever hear of it, so the question about quality modifiers is still relevant.

When you say creator, do you mean the author or the copyist scribe? I would assume the scribe. The author claiming rights sounds utterly unmedieval. The author would normally write the book to promote his own ideas, and therefore encourage copying. The copyist library, on the other hand, is a commercial business. Would the vendor/scribe mark his sigil on the book too? That could be quite reasonable I think.

At the end of the day, I think the Cow and Calf conditions should be noted with each book in the library (i.e. who has sworn the oath to whom). I really don't have a problem with its being applied, but we may decide to challenge it. BTW. Cow and Calf is based on a Hibernian ruling, never ratified by a Grand Tribunal. Thebes is likely, I think, to encourage translations. And Hibernia probably never considered the possibility. I would assume there is no precedence, so if you rule that there is, please make it explicit. The course of action is likely topic for the council meeting. Challenging Cow and Calf on the matter of translations seem a more rewarding avenue than what the vultures proposed ...

The author would probably put his/her mark on the book, including a preface that is named. Scribes/vendors would not mark the inside of the book (in fact most scribes did not even know how to read) though they would probably mark the binding or cover in some fashion.

This is medieval times not the age of enlightenment. Written knowledge is targeted to specific groups and subgroups. Broad dissemination of ideas is a foreign concept.
Translations used inside one covenant is fine. Copying and profiting from foreign editions is not. Yes, so far its a custom and not something like a law. However it is also a very good idea. How your covenant is going to handle this is up to you...

So who would be offended by unauthorised copying? The author or the copyist?

Maybe so, but it is not the era of commercial publishing either. Protecting copyrights is an equally foreign concept -- in RL anyway. OK. This is not RL, so go with it.

Indeed, So let's just have a note of any quality modifiers which are not preserved by standard core rule copying please (if any). Then we know what we have to deal with if it comes up.

[tab][/tab] The author would be offended if she found out about it.
[tab][/tab] No quality modifiers. Use standard book rules for the books and copying them. Translation needs... alot if remember correctly? They are all in Latin btw.

Translations need 5 in both languages for a -1 quality penalty, or 6 in both for no penalty (A&A).
Additionally, mundane books require an area lore of 3 covering the source culture, to avoid a -1 cultural penalty on quality. How this translates to Hermetic book is not stated, but someone suggested to require 3 in Magic Theory to replace the area lore. What do you think?

This is within reach for the covenant.

While we are at it. Other questions are bound to pop up:
Can one take translation as a speciality for dead language and/or Magic Theory?
What do Theban magi think of Hermetic books in Church Greek, translated from Latin?

[tab][/tab]Yeah I think thats from A&A. lets go with that. Yes you can take translating for any language as a specialty. From what I read only those magi in one Chantry use Church Greek. The rest use Classical. Having books in church greek is... counter productive, especially for pagan magi.

Maybe I should have asked the same question for Romaic Greek, then :slight_smile:

Hmmm... most will avoid writing hermetic texts in Romaic Greek and actually ridicule anyone who does or anyone who reads from one. Having said that, there are a number of magi who do not have an aptitude with Classical Greek and read/write solely in Romaic (a lot of the Theban ex Miscellanea fall in that category). There is derision against them, people consider them hics. Romaic Greek texts ares till produced and read, but aren't 'proper' or popular by any extent.

Good. This is pretty much as expected. If, say, sir Georgios translates Raven's books into Romaic Greek, there will probably be someone in Thebes who wants to trade similar books against them, even if most will not want them. That's feasible within a year, if somebody brings the topic to table, but then they might not. I am speculating.

[tab][/tab] I got no idea what you people are postulating here. I'll just stay silent and see what you do in game :smiley:

I don't think we postulate anything. Quite the contrary. It is pretty simple. We want a vast library. Since we have no idea what postulates may be valid, some of us are going to to test every conceivable technique to aquire more books.

As you suggest, just sit tight, and you can shoot down the attempts one by one in game :slight_smile:

(ST EDIT) Allright, I am game. So...where exactly are you going to put that 'vast' library again? :smiley:

Vast library will go in one of the many spare lab spaces, oh, that's right we don't have any of those do we ! - hehe.

Don't worry. Before the vast library comes a large library, and before the large library comes a mediocre library, and before the mediocre library comes a small one which fits in a large chest in the corner of the council room. Even the latter is five times larger than what we currently have. Let's cross that bridge when we can see it.