Bjornaer with Inner Mystery of Elemental Form HeartBeast

Just sharing a very slight frustration.

Remember that conversation we had about affecting true forms? How Corpus can still wreck havoc with you...

My Bjornaer is on his way (slowly but surely) to acquiring that Inner Mystery so as to turn into the "pure elemental" aspect of his Heartbeast, in his case, a Stone Bear.

Because it was bad enough that a Beast-of-Outlandish-Sized-Bear (who is mute) can cast all his magic quietly and without hand gestures (due to the 3 virtues), at the of adding 1 mag to make everything sight range... but I couldn't affect him with Mentem or Corpus, I needed Mentem.

Soon ... he's going to be able to tailor himself to "What? This guy knows Animal?!? Stone bear it is! Now he needs Mentem! Oh wait, he's got both? Corpus it is!"

Damn you Heartbeast. Damn you.

Granted, he's missing out on the whole familiar thing...

And a large enough ball of flame will still roast him regardless of form. DO not feel too save, pup :stuck_out_tongue: :laughing: otherwise your SG will come down to hunt you. A large enough hammer can still smash you since most damage dealing spells do not care about your form. The only problem I see is that you are annoying to RTego, but not to kill.

Bad for creating the trophy, easy to create the corpse. :wink:

But yeah, it is a nifty feature.


Gotta be on hell of a ball with a base +25 soak in Stone-bear form and a size equivalent of +4

Size is irrelevant. Just damage. A plain old BOAF can affect you without major problems. Multicast that enough times and there you go: roasted stuff. No0body said it was easy, but being stone is not a major hindrance to direct damage spells or being bombarded with boulders and trees.

You are really tough, but not unbeatable. :slight_smile: if your SG is resourceful you will win 90% of your combats hands down, but

  • some enemies might be tougher than you.
  • some enemies might prevent you using your powers (read: divine intervention)
  • some situations will prevent you from using your combat form at all: you do not want to kill the son of the Earl of Warwick, do you? :wink: IOr go on a stone bear rampage in Paris.

Raw power is not a problem for hermetics, it is the consequences of using that power unbound that matter :slight_smile:

Other hermetics and some Big Guys can still beat you hands down. A competent combat flambeau (read: stacked penetration skills) teleporting around (using the teleport 50 metres spell) multicasting POFs at you has a fair chance of killing you without much problems if it is a one on one duel and the stone bear form is your only combat power.


Size is very relevant because, with an endurance of the berserkers -like spell, you need to be hit with something that does 4X your size after soak.

Stone bear:

1-9,10-18,19-27,28+ is Incapacitated or dead.

So you need to do 28+ damage, after getting past a soak of +25 (minimum). stress die +35 means that you need to roll a 1, AND then your second roll needs to be 9 or 10 or another 1. As in a 3% or so chance per BOAF to actually kill - anything else would be ignored.

So while a competent flambeau is great at toasting 90% of other people, we're still only measuring that competent flambeau against the bjornaer in stone-bear form - who hasn't cast anything. He's not that incompetent, he teleports around with a bearswipe, and has some significant rego terram for in-opportune pits and so on.

Thankfully, the fights we've had in almost two dozen sessions can be counted on one hand.

Sam W.

Doing 26 damage after beating your MR is enpouh. You do not need to kill the target in one go, just wound it. Rinse and repeat until it is at -25 due to light and medium wounds and there you go with your auto-kill last hit.

But as I said, it is not about being tough and powerful. You certainly are tough and powerful, and it is all great :slight_smile: Quite a lot of my characters are competent fighters. :slight_smile: The issue for hermetic magi does not how to kill stuff and be the toip dogs: that is easy for them. The issue is what happens when they cannot mass murder everything in sight :slight_smile: There tend to be better stories in that case. At least in my saga.

But as I said, enjoy your status, it is certainly quite amilestone in your character development, and that is just AWESOME :smiley:


Serf's Parma, but I don't think soak receives wound penalties. So even at -25, you'd still have to come in with a sword or something and deliver quite a good blow to finish him off. Besides, by the time you get your good dozen or so BoAF's off, won't the bear have had a chance to do something, too, such as Leap of Homecoming (or a variant thereof) at the very least?


Indeed. This is why I said "if the bear thingy is your only combat useful spell". :slight_smile: IMS most people have 3 or so spoells that are useful in combat. The rest only marginally so. Movement and damage are the 2 most usual spell types, but not the only ones for sure.

The whole idea was to show that stone bear is cool and powerful, just not unbeatable :slight_smile: Far from it, in fact.


Just hope nobody slaps ya with "The Heathen Witch Reborn" outa GotF! Unless I'm sadly mistaken, there's no reason it shouldn't work on a Heartbeast right? Granted you don't see many PeVi specialist...

Where is that? I just skimmed the book and didn't find it. Thanks.


It's one of Philipus Niger's spells, page 60 under his New Spells list. But to save everyone some time... "Reverses any shapechanging spell or supernatural ability, if the level of the spell + 10 beats the level of the shapechange spell ( or the shapechange ability x5 )". It's basically an unraveling the fabric of form spell for shapechanging.

It would not work on a heartbeast because heartbeasts are considered the natural true form of the Bjornaer as much as their homid one. Unlike any other shapeshift, corpus spells don't work on heartbeasts because the person truly is the animal.

It would be like casting it on a born wolf, it would not force them into human form. To change a heartbeast into a person, you need to cast a MuAn (co requisite) spell to force the animal into human form like you would turning a born animal into a human. Defeating the mysteries of the mystery cults aren't quite so easily done even if the spell in question is good against MuCo, Lycanthropy, Faerie curses, skinchangers and such.

The stone bear's weakness is

  1. mentem still works (numb his mind or put him to sleep). My Maga with ReMe spell spells are incredibly effective and it is only level 10.
  2. by becoming stone, Te works as well as An. PeTe can be devistating,
  3. Muto works to turn your stone bear into flesh (MuAn(Te) or would it be MuTe(an)). Turn the bear into horse and soak is screwed
  4. PeIg spells to fatigue him to unconciousness.
  5. High powered damage spells
  6. ReAn(te) to teleport him high in the air. Falling damage is nasty at +1 per 2 feet. A 100' fall would do the job nicely (50+stress damage vs his soak+stress) if you are ready to fast cast counters to his defensive spells.

There are ways to deal with it without having to go through soak directly.

We'll just have to disagree here LadyP. It doesn't matter that it's considered a natural form, it's still magic that is changing their shape. And since they're using Magic to transform into their Heartbeast, that Magic should be able to be dispelled through PeVi.

Edit: Right, well I can see the argument that since the change can't be seen with Hermetic magic etc etc. So let's say I accept that logic, how bout someone who fast cast it at a guy mid transformation? At that point I'd argue that there is an active magic effect that can be dispelled.

HoH:MC p22, Ringing the Changes : "As with shapeshifters, there is no ongoing magic beyond the moment of transformation."

No argument, RAW is pretty clear. At the bottom of the same page, they discuss how to transform while your magic is suppressed. If you manage to penetrate with a level 30 spell, you have a good chance of making the Bjornaer stumble.

AFAIK She is right A bjornear in heartbeast form cannot be forced to revert to human form as both forms are equally natural. Even if you use a MuCo(An) Spell to turn him into a human the Bjornear can just shift right back. Their simply is no magical effect to dispel or Block , you can't use PeVi to stop a man standing up or stretching his arms and Bjornear taking heart beast form is as magical as that.

PeVi is useless to prevent thier shapeshifting bit works on pretty much any other form of shapeshifting including Bjornear using Muto spells to assume none heartbeast forms.

Wish I could have come earlier to save you the going back and forth. It is specifically stated that this new General Base Level ability of (Perdo Vim) for reverting shapechangers back to their true form does NOT work on heartbeast. Like flat out says so - now if I can only remember which of the books it says it in - but I'm 100% sure.


Page 129, Houses of Hermes : Societates (House Misc section)

The Heathen Witch Reborn
PeVe General

This spell cancels the effect of any shape-changing spell or supernatural ability if (spell level + 10 + stress die [no botch]) beats the level of the shape-changing spell (or the Shapeshifter ability X 5). It does not affect characters with the Heartbeast Ability. This spell can be used a template for spells that affect other types of exotic magic.

(Base effect, +2 voice)

So, by RAW, no forcing Bjornaer back into affectable-form. You wanna affect them? Hope you've got Animal, Corpus and Terram (in case of that inner mystery) or else you've gotta stick to indirect.

I think the only way affecting that bear is with terram (Pg 32 mistery cults "While in this form hermetic magus is affected with the hermetic form associated with (Or cosest to) that element, rather than the form of animal").

And of course, you can´t affect a Bjornaer magus in their innerbeast with corpus or mentem as usual.

I think the wounds penalty affect the soak, indirectly in combat (through the defense roll) and directly from the soak roll in any other situation.
I need to think about this because only a couple days ago mi group make a Vis hunt (Well, from mi viewpoint that´s not a perfect metaphora, at least when the "vis" is in form of 15 faerie giants with size +5).
I found soma magi can hit the Giants with little damage effects (little for a giant of course), the battle becomes too long and some giants arrive to a - 34 wounds penalty (You know this sistem of infinite wounds . . . ), if they can´t substract the wounds penalty from the soak roll, the giants are effectively inmortals regardless how many wounds they have only for their big size, but, in the other hand, the can be defeated with the normal combat because the soak roll is indirectly affected by the defense roll. I think this point of view is supported by the core when say "You substract you wound penalty from all total and rolls you make", however, i don´t apply this rule with the knowledge skills, but is only a house rule.

I think you would have to apply this on a case-by-case basis, though it would certainly be applicable in most situations,

Endurance of the berserkers (Bearsekers? haha) lets you ignore wound penalties however. There are cannon versions that are both concentration and sun duration.

Sam W.

Behold the Bear Seekers! 8) They are also called "city dewellers that would actually wet their pants if they really found a bear, even if they will never admit it" in some places of the world

There is no soak roll, so yes, it is only affected indirectly through the defence roll.