It's considered EXTREMLY bad form to do so - it's actually one of the story seeds in one of the books (I forget which one). The general feel of the plot seed is that everyone at the Tribunal except for the magi who did it understands that this was seriously stupid, and everyone is looking for a way to undo it that won't violate the code. In the story seed, that's where the PC's come in. (I can think of at least one way to undo it, personally.)
Eh, they'd ask the Magi to pray to God about it, and base their actions on that. The entire plot point that caused the Templar to be ensorcled (and thus unwillingly break his vow of chastity) was engineered by one of the PC's - taking care of his child is his penance.
Eh, within the context of the story, if the PC's exhausted all their options, that particular Tytalus would probably have a vision of St. John, asking him to return the child, or within a month he'd be dead. (Standard "Calling on the Saints" effect, from RoP:tD ).
EDIT - oh, sorry, thought you were talking about the Templar's child. Eh, see above - it's considered extremely bad form by everyone involved. The solution I came up with, is based on your comment: 1. Bonisman: "You felt that this child was so important that you broke social convention to take the child from her paren? Obviously the child must be a fantastic find. House bonisagus thanks you for your work....Oh, dear. I seem to have too many apprentices currently. Is there anyone available who can foster this child for a decade or two? OriginalParen, you seem to have some room in your schedule? Can you foster this apprentice? Thanks."
And did you see that I selected a Tytalus to take the Gifted child?
And it is a story seed, as in it is just beginning and needs to e developed. Everyone there may think it was stupid except the kidnapper, still isn't a case where the Code would allow anything to be done. So again, WW or a Bonisagus would have to take action.
And I have done something similart to the Bonisagus fostering with another Magus in the Bibracte saga. A Bonisagus with Who is descended from Mercere has a gifted child fostered with a Merceris magus for the term of apprenticeship., this is done to prevent another Bonisagus from stealing the apprentice away.
Anyway, I'm presenting some pretty reasonable possibilities, and you seem prepared to reject the reasons why they wouldn't happen in your saga. So, to me, it sounds as if you don't want stories centered around this issue. And if you do, you have to be prepared for losses. Pcs can't always "win." sometimes losing just a little bit is interesting n
Oh, I don't have a problem with you throwing ideas out there - but the whole point of this exercise is to identify holes In the character's plan, so that he can fix it beforehand. (For example, the whole "you must cover your apprentice with your parma" - I had forgotten about that, so the character will need to address it before he starts training all his apprentices.)
The story here is "setting everything up" - needing to get the labs in place, the books ready, the paperwork done, etc. In this case, the preparation IS the story, and all the things that go into it. The actual gaining of the apprentices is years out - this is stuff he'll be working on until then.
It's just that particular story seed (the taking of the child from the biological paren) was something I've known about for years - so it's a non-issue with me.
And the other soldales may not EXACTALLY have all their arts up to 5 (they may be short one or two) - so we'll need to make sure that backup plan is more fully in place.
And honestly, the Templar's child isn't my story line - it's someone else's. (Likely the player who would be the GM for any bonisagus or other magi coming into the covenant. So he would be essentially saying "I want to screw with my own PC" - to which the rest of us would collectively shrug, and say "OK."
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Eh, I'm fine with the stories - but again, the issue of this thread is about reasonable preparation, as I (as a player) don't know as much about the world as the PC does. You've pointed out a few issues, for which I thank you. I'll need to reprioritize what it is he's working on (he was originally planning on some Divination research, but it looks like he'll need to go for the Gentle Gift effect first), and he'll need to ensure that the other soldales really CAN back him up. As another potential backup plan, he can simply refuse entry to other magi, or else hide the children when they come around, or even set up living quarters and/or expand his sanctum (didn't even think about that one). He also may consider simply moving them into a higher level of the region.
Of course children of Magi are not protected in any way. HoH:TL has an example of a Maga's child being taken as an apprentice quite legally by another Magi. In the second case, if taking the child could run someone into trouble with church issues just raising the child yourself could open you to similar accusations.
Remember a tribunal is not a court with a concept of an impartial judge and jury. It is an opinion ruled democracy of your peers. Peers who happen to consider you a burnt out Hedge wizard. So for instance it doesn't actually matter if your methods work and you can provide instruction to four apprentices a season. If your sodales are suspicious of your "dangerous hedge methods" they will probably rule against you. Worse because only one version of the truth is allowed to be presented to the Tribunal you might not even be allowed to tell the tribunal you are actually capable of instructing 4 apprentices.
Of course those two things could be completely unrelated. Gentle gift which has to do with what the magus puts out in the world might have nothing to do with Parma ability to block being affected by the gift.
I think it's a very generous troupe to give you exactly what you need on the first try. I could also suggest several other effects.
An opening that preserves a Gentle Gift (if the apprentice has it) at no added difficulty. (Hint sell it to the Jerbitons for an exorbitant price.)
An Aegis Lvl 60 that stops the effects of the Gift from being felt across it but the gift still has the same effect if all parties are within. So it only really helps if you interact right at it's border.
A watching ward that goes off if a blatant or normally gifted character touches it but not gently gifted.
A Ritual Boundary Year version of the Phantom Gift. (oh you will find a use for that)
A potion (charged item) that reduces the effect the imbider's gift puts off by 3 (so a normally gifted person -0 blatant -3) for duration of sun. Unfortunately it also causes 2 warping.
Eventually the ward you suggested but only able to lower the penalty by one. The guidelines are all fixed by the inspiration so you'd need another inspiration to reinvent a more powerful version.
Thank you - I was trying to figure out where I read that. And yes - in re-reading it, the subtext is that while the Law is clear, everyone involved understands that the magi in question is being a deuche, and will likely take any legitimate reason to give the child back. The Boni-snatch-switch idea is the one I came up with (and others seem to have) that keeps the Order's Law intact while still respecting the rights of the paren.
Convincing the other PC's that this is a valid thing to do is, in fact, on the to-do list.
The GM has mentioned that while she thinks it's a fine idea, her character would certainly be hesitant to let her daughter be St. Avery's apprentice, for exactly the reasons mentioned. "burn out hedge-wizard" indeed. Again, this is all a pre-emptive list of things to do BEFORE getting the apprentices, such as trying to use what credit he does have with Duremar (who know that he's at least a decent theoretician) to see if he can get their tentative approval on setting up a university-style educational system.
Of course those two things could be completely unrelated. Gentle gift which has to do with what the magus puts out in the world might have nothing to do with Parma ability to block being affected by the gift.
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At the end of the day, the result is the same - Gentle gift prevents the penalty due to the gift going out, while Parma prevents being affected by the penalty of the gift. If the justification for "extending your parma" to the apprentice while teaching is the social aspect, than either one will do, if everyone in the room has it: Either everyone having parma, or everyone having Gentle Gift, will prevent that -3 from affecting the apprentice's ability to learn.
Hey, nice list! But yeah, that was my first recommendation off the top of my head, because the guy's a ward specialist. I figure Gentle Gift is a 60 point integration project, which will require a few years of research and whatnot. However, I'm guessing that some of it has already been done, and is sitting in the stacks in Duremar. Of course, finding that would be an adventure in and of itself, and maybe would only get 15 breakthrough points - and some Bonisagus is probably already working on it, and considers it "his" project, etc.
Thank you - I was trying to figure out where I read that. And yes - in re-reading it, the subtext is that while the Law is clear, everyone involved understands that the magi in question is being a deuche, and will likely take any legitimate reason to give the child back. The Boni-snatch-switch idea is the one I came up with (and others seem to have) that keeps the Order's Law intact while still respecting the rights of the paren.
Convincing the other PC's that this is a valid thing to do is, in fact, on the to-do list.
The GM has mentioned that while she thinks it's a fine idea, her character would certainly be hesitant to let her daughter be St. Avery's apprentice, for exactly the reasons mentioned. "burn out hedge-wizard" indeed. Again, this is all a pre-emptive list of things to do BEFORE getting the apprentices, such as trying to use what credit he does have with Duremar (who know that he's at least a decent theoretician) to see if he can get their tentative approval on setting up a university-style educational system.
At the end of the day, the result is the same - Gentle gift prevents the penalty due to the gift going out, while Parma prevents being affected by the penalty of the gift. If the justification for "extending your parma" to the apprentice while teaching is the social aspect, than either one will do, if everyone in the room has it: Either everyone having parma, or everyone having Gentle Gift, will prevent that -3 from affecting the apprentice's ability to learn.
Hey, nice list! But yeah, that was my first recommendation off the top of my head, because the guy's a ward specialist. I figure Gentle Gift is a 60 point integration project, which will require a few years of research and whatnot. However, I'm guessing that some of it has already been done, and is sitting in the stacks in Duremar. Of course, finding that would be an adventure in and of itself, and maybe would only get 15 breakthrough points - and some Bonisagus is probably already working on it, and considers it "his" project, etc.
Having the Subtle Opening Virtue does not mean you can open your own apprentice that way.
The way to teach Virtues you own to your apprentice is explained in Apprentice, maybe that solves the previous issue.
As said, Subtle Opening does not reduce the Opening the Arts penalty.
Now, if studying the result of the opening counts as an insight, you can be sure a concurrent Boni will snatch all your apprentices just to get the Breakthrough first.
There were discussions about MT being trainable before, it does not matter is it is allowed as it is not usually viable. {MT+3 vs Comm+Teach+3+6} since both are 1-on-1. Your magus seems to be an exception as you'd need Teaching 7 to match your MT 11.
OTOH, the significant distraction theory does not hold water as there are no such penalty for any other Training.
Group study might work, but it's still 1 season per apprentice. With 4 of them you'd do 4 seasons of group study every year.
I'd expect them to get their 120 levels of spells. They could read Lab Texts, if they have a lab, but with their 20ish Lab Total that'd take a long enough time to negate any study gain from your method. You could argue that nothing on p95 states that it must be 1-on-1, but that'd be a little abusive.
Any magus can snatch before their Arts are open. Assuming starting the process does not leave magical traces and you can make a convincing lie, if you don't opened his Arts next season you are committing the high crime of Deprivation of Magical Power, the apprentice being part of that. (HoH:TL, box on p53 has the story)
Kill apprentices and that's Deprivation again except you're the bad guy.
All 4 of them are as vulnerable, the promise to a mundane is yours to keep or not. A Tytalus would have a field day here.
Do any of those to a Bonisnatcher and you can be sure the full force of Trianoma's political power will be borne to make an example of you. Expect an emergency Tribunal to crush the lowly Ex Misc who dared to attack the main True Lineage House. Or a Wizard's War to raze the covenant followed by a Tribunal's ruling over your dead body.
IOW, there's no in-character way to stop it from happening.
Well, I think that's enough things you must prepare for.
Also keep in mind that acording to ArM5 165 Hermetic Arts can only be teached one on one and so no Group teaching for this beside Training dont works for Hermetic Arts at all (ArM 164).
Ohh and dont forget if you use the Training methode then you also only can improve one Student in that saison.
That's not exactly what you initially presented, in fact, it's quite a bit different than from the original premise. On the technical forums, this is the point where someone usually points out that to answer the question we need more information.
For every possible action,it's possible to come up with reasonable story reasons on why you can't get what you want. I'm not seeing a lot of adventure in all the preparations being done to ensure that the future goes exactly to plan. It's so much more fun and interesting to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. And sometimes, sometimes, it's just as fun to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
No I wasn't actually talking about your covanantmates. I meant all the other Magi of the order. Or rather, any Magi who show up to the Tribunal where someone brings charges against you for neglecting your apprentices.
Pre-approval is not a bad idea. But since the order lacks any true central government or bureaucracy all it really gets you is some potential allies should you be challenged. Also your potential sponsors will probably have suggestions and conditions.
Fair 'nuff. The original reason was asking about under what circumstances a character could go to tribunal if an apprentice was boni-snatched and get them back.
The implied reason, and I'm sorry that wasn't explicitly stated, was to identify issues in-game before hand, and make a reasonable changes to the plan. This aspect is as much simulationist as anything else, as an attempt to identify what the character would see as problems with his own plan, and how he would address them.
Sure. "Cost of victory, price of defeat", "Failure is usually more dramatic than success," "Ultimately, Gandalf's plan didn't work", and all that. The main theme of the Saga is actually "Farie tales" - it's set in The Black Forest, about 30 miles or so west of the Rhinefalls. The Alpha GM (Laura) originally envisioned her story arcs having to deal with Hermetic interpretations of classic Grimm's fairy tales. Everything else we do (gaining apprentices, accidentally cutting down vis sources that belong to Dankmar, having Templars tromp through the woods looking for evil, etc.) are all the secondary story arcs to that.
Having four apprentices, in addition to the in-game justification of "showing up his paren" (who, I am discovering through this discussion, probably went for the "hide the children under a blanket" school of mass instruction) is so that all of the four players can have an apprentice story arc going. Because I am the only player that did the "go through each season" method of character creation, my player is the one closest to being able to Open the Ways successfully (Roots and Branches, using Correspondence, Training and Language Immersion rules, etc.). Within a year, he'll be able to take Apprentices, and we thought that would be an interesting secondary arc to have. It's also a way to teach one of the newer players the joys of season-by-season character creation.
As such, having any of the apprentices pulled off to Duremar by the Bonisagus isn't a viable option, because that's a PC apprentice character that's being pulled out of the game. So, while we can certainly use the "Bonisagus shows up and takes an interest" as a dramatic plot device, it's understood that it probably won't work, due to the theme of the game.
Hence, I'm trying to figure out what the structure of such a situation would look like, within the constraints of the gameworld. Such activities show, to me at least, the "interesting fiddly bits", such as requiring a character be able to cover all his apprentices with a parma, the issue of stacking the Gift penalties, the teaching requirements, and so one.
In other words, I'm assuming success because it's the basis for the stories for the other players.
Now, with that in mind, the simple answer may be "have St. Avery open the ways of each apprentice, then immediately hand them off to one of the other magi, and then just pool teaching resources within the covenant" They're all in a group, and St. Avery can still "teach" them, but a lot of these issues go away if there's already a declared paren.
Then that's really all you need. As long as the troupe generally agrees this is what everyone wants, you just do it, and don't worry about it. A simulationist approach is probably only going to get you to 80% or 90% certainty about protecting the apprentice. As far as the outline of your unorthodox training schedule, it's problematic from the standpoint of a 10 year gauntlet (it's not unusual to open Arts and then turn them over to a teacher for Latin and Artes Liberalis). Ars isn't really about buttoning up every possibility and crossing every 'T' and dotting every 'i'. You can do, it sure, but magi have so much power, that everyone, players and SG alike are much better served about having some discussion of what kind of stories are desired. If I said to an SG, I don't really want to have to have stories that involve swiping my apprentice, so if I treat him reasonably, can we handwave those stories away? Not all troupes operate like this, but I try to. For example, Covenants has a Regio listed in multiple ways as a boon and a hook. If it's taken as a boon, that's direction to me, as an SG, that I really shouldn't use it to mess with the characters, such as something sneaking in[1]. It's there for the benefit of the players, not to generate stories.
[1] Currently have a story going on in the Bibracte saga here on the forum, where I did use the regio in a way that the players might say is generating a story, but this story is acting on the Story Flaw of a character, it's an entirely reasonable use of the regio.
Groovy - I'm actually fine with taking a simulationist approach to achive a (hopefully) 85% certainty - as that would create the framework to tell the apprentice stories in. That remaining 10-15% uncertainty leaves room for the other players to run standard apprentice-style stories, with the Bonisagus showing up or whatever. (Although if I do get my story about getting tentative Duremar approval, it'll more likely be having the Boni show up to "see how things are going".
(Ha! Just thought of something: telepresence VR instructor/students: a traditional apprentice is in their mentor's lab, off to the side, and is linked (mentally or with an imaginem effect) to the classroom where the teacher is teaching. As befits a Rego specialist, I can see these as being basically linked rings - one which surrounds the student's desk in the lab, and one which projects that image into the classroom. When sitting at the lab desk, the student can interact (verbally) with everyone else in the classroom. This allows the students to gain the benefit of being in a classroom setting, without having a bunch of apprentices freaking each other out and ruining the study bonus.)
ANYWAY....
I was hoping (and this thread has mostly delivered) to identify any gaping holes that would blow verisimilitude out of the water - ie, anything that, if visiting magi found out, would drop that percentage down to 10%, or something. And it seems like the original "spend 5 years before actually opening the ways" seems to be that thing. So the solution does seem to be to just drop that particular part out of the story, and get everything ready beforehand. The other is the issue of 1:1 training, and does it actually have to be 1:1, and if it's not, you'd better figure out a way to deal with the Gift penalty for having 4 apprentices in the room.
You can always threaten Wizard War (or, perhaps, fight Certamen) to prevent Boni-snatching.
Which I think is why Bonisagus magi wouldn't generally be dicks about it. Sure, a Bonisagus magus has the right to snatch any apprentice. But they are only likely to exercise that right when a) the apprentice has some highly exotic combination of Virtues (that the Bonisagus magus thinks need to be not only be within the Order, but within his House) that make risking a confrontation worthwhile, or b) the original master is so useless that "resucing" the apprentice is clearly in the best interests of the wider Order, or just possibly c) if in the saga the Gift is really, really, really rare (at least within the Tribunal), or finally d) there is already extreme antagonism between the master and local Bonisagus magi.
So, unless you think that your potential apprentice meets one of these criteria, Boni-snatching doesn't normally seem a big risk. However, I doubt that the Tribunal would typically censure a Bonisagus magus for Boni-snatching, unless he was repeatedly making a nuisiance of himself.
What I wondered for long already is if Bony-snatching is extrems rare or even disalowed from Verditius and Bjornaer?
Because this 2 houses initiate the house secrets already with the openening of the gift and so the resulting mage would have both house benefit if a Banisagus would take one of theyr aprentice.
Also how would a char like this designend and played to not break the rule that any mage with Verditius Magic and Heartbeast have to be part of the respective house and that no mage can be part of 2 houses?
I also haven't touched on books, the rarity thereof. There is a tendency for there to be a lot of books in Mythic Europe, to feed the voracious appetites of magi. And these books seem to get treated much like we treat books nowadays, as a nearly unlimited resource. Yes, there may be issues of time and logistics, but the very real risks of books being damaged or worn down seems to be diminished. It has been pointed out to me that it should be rare that an apprentice be given a book to read and learn from, because books should be rare and treated with care that a teenager or 20 something might not be able to provide. Further, there's the (Don't have Apprentices in PDF) issue that apprentices can have their magic get away from them. If they're studying from a book, I'd bet the book would bear the brunt of such damage, which should reduce the willingness of masters to allow their apprentices to learn from books, or really anything that could be damaged, which kind of redirects it back to 1 on 1 instruction.
Interesting that you brought that up - last night, I was playing with the Lab rules, and figuring out what the optimum "teaching lab" would be. (I'm assuming that any ability whose books can take advantage of Resonances can be taught in a lab, and can take advantage of the benefits therein - so, basically Arcane and Supernatural skills).
With that in mind, it's pretty easy to put together a lab that has good safety, teaching, and Text bonuses - of course, you can't do Familiar, longevity, Item, or vis collection in it, and it may not have all the regents for every spell you want to create - but it doesn't cost any extra (upkeep 0) and Isn't all that big (Size 2 - can be taken down to Size 0 if you replace Palatial with Opulent.)
Thus, that addresses at least partially the issues of an apprentice's magic getting away from them: the lab has a Safety of 6. (Also, St. Avery has cautious sorcerer, which implies that it will be passed onto his apprentices.) So there's another mitigation.
The final mitigation is that the lab's Text bonus is 6 - which grants a +2 to Language and Scribe skill. And I was planning on having the apprentices' copy their own books (or at the least make those 'student copy' versions for their own use - which I believe is pretty common practice) as part of the Scribe skill training, as described in the core rulebook. Most of these books are Roots or their ability-equivalent (lvl 2-3), so they're fairly easy to copy.
The actual copying is done in the lab, which has a magic circle set up to assist in Copying (basically it acts as an overhead projector, projecting the page sitting on the teacher's desk up onto the wall - so they don't need to touch the book itself ever.)
That being said - yeah, even that isn't being done to pre-teens - I figure the first five years are mainly Latin and fundamentals, which you can get the local college graduate to teach the basics in. The second five years has the apprentices being shown the basics of scribing and of making their own copies of books, and using them to take notes and whatnot. At that point, in the last five years, they might be able to touch a book that they haven't personally copied.
Also - if needs be, the lab can be optimized to Teach (+10) - while you can only gain a +3 bonus to teaching, you can use that extra to cancel out penalties; and I'd argue that "unshielded apprentices" count as a relevant penalty. That looses the Text bonus, but does address the unshielded issue.
With that in mind - where does it say that the Gift penalty stacks? I was reading through the section in the main book (pg. 75-77), and didn't see any indication that it would. In general, that would imply that any small group of magi would cause a town to explode in hysteria, if more than 3 magi ever got together - and that prior to Bonisagus, it was literally impossible for 3 magi to have a conversation with each other. That doesn't seem to be the case in any example given.
The analogy given is "bad reputation" - but having 5 people, each with the same bad reputation, doesn't make the group impossible to talk to (ie, a -12 or -15 penalty). It may make the person who experiences it nervous, but doesn't make it impossible.
However, if this is ever spelled out explicitly anywhere, I'd be happy to look it up.
That is a very generous interpretation of the +3 limit.
For the stacking of penalties consider 4 unruly and untrustworthy children in a room. Each believes the other is up to no good. The instructor doesn't like any of them. Why wouldn't they stack. Each Gift is unique and imposes its own penalty on the teachers source quality. It is a social interaction, for each one, IMO. I'm away from my books but it has been discussed here before. I'm sure we've all experienced the incorrigible child in a classroom. Sometimes it is more than one. And each one has an impact on the environment.
