The idea that I can't predict where my magus will be in a season or two is just annoying to me. Part of what I like about Ars, is that I can plan for the future. If I have that measure of certainty taken away from me, what's the point? I don't find that interesting, to be honest. Now, for a story, sure, variability the twist of fate represented by the die roll, that's great. Quintuple botch because I cast a spontaneous spell with 10 pawns of vis. That's really interesting, and I own that choice, and the consequences. If the die roll says I earn less than X from a tractatus, where X is the maximum, well, I'm annoyed.
I think there is very little reason to limit the XP received from books. As you go up in Art scores, you continue to need more books, diminishing returns are already built into the system. If you really need to introduce fate into the process, make the die roll represent chance that he's already read the darn book representing his Art score of 20 at the start of play.
It used to be that you read books until there were none available, and then you took to studying vis despite the risks.
Then we got tracatus and Arts based on XPs, and who in their right minds have made extensive use of studying from Vis since then? Unless there was some saga specific reason, obviously.
3rd edition? At least vis was considered on the same scale as books then.
4th was worse but not too bad, as the number of pawns still acted as a multiplier to the die roll to determine how many xp you got.
5th edition, though completely killed study from raw vis. The number of pawns you need increase as your score does, but not the amount of xp you receive. So on average a tractatus is better, unless you live in a powerful aura.
Then you need to limit the availability of books, or have a rule that determines (before you study from it) whether that new tractatus can be of any use to you. I just don't buy an endless stream of good-quality tractatus.
IMHO, usefulness of tractatus should be in the same range as that of vis study. They don't need to be treated in the same way, just be in the same league. Right now nobody studies from vis anymore, because the payout is simply not worth the risk. Right now you are better off spending the vis to purchase some more tractatus.
Perhaps vis study should provide rewards that are not represented by xp? Something like Experimentation results? (Sorry, going off-topic for this thread.)
Didn't I just say that, but you left it out of my quote? Some sort of random determination of whether the book has already been read during character generation? And controlling books during play is honestly up to the SG. I mean, if a magus has consumed 19 or twenty books pretty easily, there's probably other things going on in that setting. Also, that's 5 years of just reading. Spread that out over the lifetime of other activity a magus undertakes and I'm seeing this to be less of a problem.
To address your off-topic issue: yes, the risk/reward calculation of studying from vis is skewed very heavily in the risk category. There is the potential for very high XP, but it is much less likely to happen than it is for someone to botch horribly. Of course botches can have positive Twilight outcomes...
Sorry about the quote, but I did not mean during character generation only. I meant every time the magus gets his hands on a new tractatus. Because there is nothing to say that the subject of any tractatus you are getting isn't something that you've read about. And as the original poster described, even if the SG tries to limit the availability of tractatus, the players can run circles around him by themselves establishing a writing circle. That forces the SG to house-rule to prevent it, or find various reasons to foil them again and again.
In short, it doesn't matter if two tractatus were written by two different authors if they are about the same thing. It could be something like a stress die against an Ease Factor of (Number of tractatus read on that Art)/2. So after a while, it will be a crap shoot whether any more tractatus are about something new to him. I wouldn't have this any significant amount of time, perhaps only a day or two perusing the book before the magus determines that there is little of interest to him in there.
Although you are correct that for a magus for whom this is spread out over many decades, having 20 tractatus isn't too big a problem. The problem is that those tractatus remain available in the library, so when a new magus comes along and starts reading, he will be able to concentrate that reading in 5 years, getting to the same point (in that Art) as the old magus almost instantly. This is quite similar to the situation that the original poster mentioned -- the new magus can then write a pletory of new tractatus for the old magus to study, even though he studied using the exact same material.
So my point is that there needs to be some sort of barrier to the unlimited usefulness of new tractatus.
And yes, vis study should be attractive again at some point. Twilight can be positive, but comes at a heavy price, namely Twilight Points which shorten the lifespan of the magus. And, since the number of Twilight Points that studying from vis can give increase as the magus' knowledge of the Art increase, currently studying from vis becomes less attractive as time the magus is more experienced, rather than more. It's a vicious circle: when the magus is young he doesn't have to vis to spare to study from vis, and it's easy for him to find books to study from, and when he's old he can't risk the heavy price of Twilight Points linked to the many pawns of vis needed to study from. And as I mentioned, I think that studying from vis should be more like Experimentation, instead of being reduced to the normal/exploder/botch switch. I'd like to see insights, discoveries, new spells, strange results, etc. Something to make it attractive, while maitaining an element of risk.
Tractatus have neither of these problems, and have the added advantage that all the magi of the covenant can study from them while the cost of one (in vis) is about the same as a single season of vis study. So we have a setting where books should be scarce (because huge libraries are quite anachronistic) while the system pushes us heavily towards books. I know which one I'd like changed.
Spending a season studying from vis, with the risk entailed, sounds much more mythic to me then the archmagus saying "Hmmm, let's go to the bookstore again, a need a few more tractatus to increase my Art!"
As an SG, if they're doing that, forming a writing circle, then they aren't doing a host of other things that probably needs doing. Or I would ensure that it needs doing. Is it possible to do this over a long term saga? Certainly, it's even somewhat expected. But not all magi have good com scores and are Good Teachers, either. There's the issue of writing, and then there's the issue of consuming said writing. If they are doing nothing but a feedback loop on that, it's going to be a very boring affair, and yes, they'll have stupendous Art scores...but so what? As someone said to me, maybe even in this very thread, if that's what the troupe wants, why should I stand in the way of that?
But why is the old magus giving the new magus access to the library? And this also presupposes that the new magus has an Art score equivalent to the Art score of the old magus when he started reading, which should not necessarily be the case. Further, I would suggest that if the Art score is high, that it is reasonably likely that a number of these tractatus, unless they are one of a kind and have never been traded, have a chance of having been read by the new magus. This is why I'd like the die roll to be associated with the chance of the tractatus having been read, rather than focusing on the tractatus giving some variable amount of experience points. It still allows a character to plan for certain things.
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Perhaps we need to make studying from vis more attractive rather than make tractatus less attractive. The other issues are really a function of the troupe and saga, and if they want to create a writing circle and push their Art scores up obscenely high, well, that's the game they want. You and I might find that to be utterly boring, and would manage the saga accordingly...
In 3rd edition, vis was definitely on par with books. Books only had a "Level", rather than a Quality, and your Art score would increase by 1, 2 or 3 depending on whether the book Level was higher than your Art score, at least twice your Art score, or at least three times your Art score. When studying from vis, you could use up to 3 pawns, and it would be the equivalent of studying from a book of Level equal to Aura+(stress die * number of pawns). Since books above Level 15 were definitely uncommon, above Level 20 quite rare, and above 25 virtually unheard of, very few books could compete with three pawns of vis as a study source in a good aura, and vis was virtually the sole way to raise your Art scores beyond the low 20s. This is one of the very, very few mechanical aspects where I'm not entirely convinced that 5th edition is actually an improvement over 3rd edition.
That said, while I agree that books are generally better than vis in 5th edition, vis study can be better in some circumstances. If vis is really plentiful, and you are located in a powerful magical Aura (6+), with a lab with good Safety (see Covenants) and possibly a familiar with a decent gold cord, vis study will yield more xp than sound (Q11 according to Covenants) tractatus on average (and thus in the long run). Art Aligned Auras (from RoP:M), vis prava used by Infernally-aligned characters, and Virtues like Free study can futher shift the balance in favour of vis.
A simple house rule we found effective in this sense is the following. When studying from vis, freely choose the number of pawns expended, with a minimum of 1. Each pawn adds 1 to the final Source Quality (which is then equal to stress die + Aura modifier + pawns expended).
However, we employ the RAW when studying from vis, and prefer to penalize book study at high Art levels. We reduce the Study Total of Arts by 1 for every 5 full levels of the current Art score, reflecting the fact that an experienced magus is likely to already know many things in any given book. Thus, a magus with a score of 18 incurs a -3 penalty to Study totals from books, which starts making vis study worthwhile. A magus with a score of 30+ incurs a penalty of at least -6 when studying from books, meaning he's far more likely to study from vis than from books alone.
Increasing Arts above 20 (or so) was the in use of studying from Vis I saw back then. But it may just have been my troupe being too nervous to study from Vis when books were available at all. And yes, I remember those rules too.
Sure, as the SG you can do that. But then you slide towards the attitude of "the SG is only there to foil the players", which to me doesn't sound fun. After all, if they designed their characters that way, it must be because that's the kind of thing they want to play, right? As you wrote yourself, you and I could find that writing utterly boring. Other people would like it fine. I don't object to that.
What I do object to is a system that sets this situation up as the default one. Let's be realistic, every player has a munchkin side (however small), and when the system (by default) allows an endless path to improvement, we feel cheated if the storyguide blocks that path. I'd much rather prefer a system with a barrier (or a downside) to the endless stream, which the storyguide can remove for a higher-powered saga, then the reverse.
Again, because that sets the storyguide as the "bad guy" who has to deny stuff to the players. I know and understand that it is the SG's task to foil the players, to a degree. But that should be to tell a story, not simply to limit access to resources that seem readily available to their character. What do you do when both the old and the new magi are players? And if both started with a 0 in that Art (or the new player had a higher score out-of-Gauntlet)?
Different tastes, which is fine. You prefer predictability, while I submit that learning by its very nature contains a degree of uncertainty. Not everyone learns the same way, and no text is understood by two people the same way. We can certainly certainly see that on these boards on a regular basis.
But the exact mechanism to limit the endless-tractatus-learning matters less, to me, than the fact that some sort of barrier is established. Right now, the only one is Storyguide fiat, something that I don't like. I consider this one of the flaws of 5th edition.
I think ideally we need to do a little of both. Reduce the attractiveness of tractatus, but by making an endless stream of them less likely rather than by reducing their effectiveness. Make vis study more attractive by adding quirks that you can't get through other means rather than boosting the xp yield.
I don't accept that it's the default one. I think it's one you can get to with some flawed assumptions and without a serious discussion about the kind of game that's going to be played. If you accept that most Ars players are adults, for some value of adult, then you can have an adult discussion about how to limit the book factory effect. Putting rules just seems a waste of effort. If the troupe wants a book factory, then they get it. If they don't, it's going to be hard for an individual to realize their inner munchkin.
I suppose it starts from a different premise, if I, as an SG stop and discuss what's going on and say it's bad for the game and the troupe says, this is what they want to play, I'm going to go along with it. There is always an element of conflict between the SG and the players. Sometimes the SG needs to be the bad guy and sometimes he needs to back off. If they start with a 0 in the Art, and dive in to tractatus that exist, they'll get high Art scores, sure. But then they will have exhausted the available supply. But, in a game with adults, the troupe decides how readily tractatus are available. Not all of them are going to be Q10 and higher. A lot will be, sure. And if a player wants to start with an Art at 0, to realize some long term play on making that his go to Art, I don't have a problem with that. If he also took Affinity and Puissant in that Art, we'd probably have to talk about it as a troupe. That there needed to be a good reason he didn't learn about it, but had those virtues.
Sure, Ars is, at the magus level a story about simulation, and about being able to predict where a character will be after he studies X books on Y subjects with Z quality levels. At the end of his study, he can invent spells A, items C, and be able to perform effects B and D predictably with spontaneous magic.
If the mechanism doesn't matter, and players can be nominally trusted to be reasonable, a formula to determine whether they've read a certain tractatus is probably more valuable than limiting the XP by varying it. Consider a council of magi who are negotiating for a tractatus, the name and topic are known, so we can determine who in the council has read it. 4 out of 5 have not read it. That 1 magus will do anything he can to find an alternative tractatus. Maybe he has to wait for it to be read by all the magi and it gets traded away? Maybe he's passive aggressive, never let the other characters know he read it and destroys it, hoping to acquire another tractatus that he knows. Varying XP doesn't introduce the possibility for stories, it just brings up the possibility that you can't predict where you are based on the resources you have available. I don't deny that learning is a variable process in real life. I'm not exactly playing a game about real life, though. I want a game that presents possibilities for interesting and exciting stories. Varying the XP doesn't do that.
I don't see the stream as endless, honestly, and I find it to be hyperbolic to be calling the supply of tractatus endless. Can it be exploited? Yes, but Ars, by its very definition is a system that is full of exploits. Sometimes people say, let's do it. And sometimes people say let's not. There's all kinds of room in the system for interesting stories.
I would say that if you're going to vary XP awarded in a season from a tractatus, to simulate the real world experience, you need to consider an additional season or period of time later on to catch up and acquire the missing experience. Unless you never go back and reread something and develop more insight into the underlying subject...
I would like to point out that a writing circle is a path to power. Its a good one in fact. I would say its the best one using just core even! But when you start introducing the other big time paths to power from other books... not so much. One idea might be creating a bunch of really good labs. In fact, specialize the labs. With high enough safety you could even make a lab with a massive spec in experimentation. Get a couple crafters that make extraordinary lab equipment/tools. Enchanted items will provide another decent boost.
Or you could go the mystery cult route. Start a cult of being awesome! (Or doing good deeds, or sharing knowledge or whatever.) You can have the grogs run a writers/teachers circle, and then read all their tracti and mass produce virtues.
Researching breakthroughs or various forms of ancient magic is wonderfully effective. Works really well if you add good lab safety and transformed human.
On that note transformed human allows for excellent magical qualities. Notably improved abilities, and virtues. Combo'd with a writers circle you can buff yourselves even more.
Or you could run the route of granting virtues via powers/abilities. Fae can do it fairly well. The roll for shuffling virtues around is only 6, and it only costs 5 pretense. The roll is only 12 to get a free minor virtue and the cost only 15 pretense. Muspelli can create creatures with magic powers. A fun one is always granting every day objects vis source.
A inferalist group with ceremony, could easily get a crap ton of forsaken duration virtues. Namely all of them. Notably ablation, so they can grab might. And phantasm so they can manufacture spirits to grab might from. And they can buff their abilities, by making plants suck at said ability. (Also though this near instantly and completely breaks the game unless God smites them or something similar.)
So really writers circles while decent... not that good when you look at non-core power gathering methods. In all honesty I think that is the real issue with a writers circle. Sure it gets you a decent chunck of power. Or... you could found a mystery cult and live forever as a transformed human. Which ya gonna go with?
Indeed and perhaps that's why I find the idea of limiting books (tractatus, really) to be a bit on the odd side, when other things capable of doing much worse to a saga get allowed to be in it. Those things typically get discussed, as they get added to a saga. Not all mysteries should be or are available for every saga (I think this is even suggested in TMRE). This is why having a troupe discussion about things is so important, because it's a framework for hanging the stories you want to tell. Perhaps I'm unimaginative, but I can't find much interesting to insert into a troupe who forms a writing circle on their path to ultimate power. If they want to close themselves off from the rest of the Order, well, the Order probably needs to come in and investigate, if only to find out what's going on. Or maybe a demon takes an interest in their path to ultimate power... So, I was wrong in my self-assessment, I am imaginative, but apparently it's disrupting to player's plans. So then it comes down to the players, do they want to play, or do they just want to simulate the growth of their magi until they grow bored and move on.
I'd be totally on board with a game that said, we're going to be a reclusive bunch of Hermetic scholars who will lock ourselves away to learn from each other, so long as the hooks of the covenant and the story flaws of the players were adequately well defined and allowed the players to be pulled into stories without them kicking and screaming every time it happened. There is a difference between the character's desires and the player's desires. I have a desire for my female Tytalus to be a Hermetic Shipwright in Loch Leglean. The reality though is she has some pretty amazing hurtles to overcome to do it. And yes, I gave her some tools in her Virtue selection that will help, but she has to pursue a path that includes stories that affect her, and affect the covenant. I could have had her grind up to a Magic Theory from 1 to 6 in a few seasons of reading, but it's so much more interesting to allow her to get diverted away from her path, or pursue things she needs, but at sub-optimal times.
Far from all interacts with the world around them, but it only takes a few for it to likely spread relatively quickly through the order, because paper does have its own advantages. Parchment isn´t superior either, it´s mainly durable.
But of course! That makes for a perfect library doesn´t it? Of the Pratchett style.
Well, i very much doubt the sigil would be THAT obvious, otherwise magic would be halfway useless.
And i meant that unless you get a too low Finesse result, you basically get the theoretical ideal whenever creating something with magic...
Huh... Interesting idea. Not sure it´s good, but certainly useful for alternate settings Sagas.
Without taking it to extremes the idea of a few magi collaborating by sharing Tractati is perfectly sensible. Agreements like "Hey if you write a book please send me a copy, and I'll do the same." can't be to unheard of. Particularly if the characters involved know each other to be worthy writers.
Where the idea runs into problems is having a bunch of characters maxed out for writing, all interested in the same art, all on good terms with each other, and all equally dedicated to putting the time into this one project.
More durable than paper, none of the grain of papyrus. Reusable over time. And the knowledge to produce it is readily available in Mythic Europe. Paper on the other hand, either needs to be imported or the manufacturing process needs to be brought to the covenant. These are certainly not insurmountable tasks, but I can easily see magi deciding not to bother, since parchment meets all their needs.
I was exaggerating to make a point. Perfect paper is probably going to be considered as inferior to perfect parchment. I certainly don't have any objection to making books appear out of thin air, so to speak. The use of vis for the process is a bit of a waste of it, IMO. But, yes, it's possible, although, what drug me into this was mainly the point that it wasn't as easy as was proposed.
Exactly. A while back someone did a population distribution of the Order, and I think it's come up several times... There aren't that many magi who have Com 5 and Good Teacher. I think it came out to be 3-10 out of 1200. And so they don't have anywhere close to a full Art distribution. And heaven forbid that they are interested in teaching other things. For example, I have a Gently Gifted Merceris magus who is more interested in teaching at the University than he is anywhere else, and he's not teaching Magic Theory or Arts.
Eh, writing and reading papers? That's like the dream job of quite a few of the people who go work at universities. Do research, write on it, digest other people's research. Nothing, unrealistic about that. Sure, they probably won't do it every season of every year, but they could still get a decent amount done.
At least vis was considered on the same scale as books then.
