It is a good point. I know you can add durations to Perdo magic to have a similar effect to ReVi. Mostly used for PeCo effects where you hurt someone while concentrating and then the damage reverts once you stop.
W
Not true. Though there is a flaw that makes all perdo behave that way, impermanently. What happens with Perdo with duration is normally the effect of the Perdo can not be fixed for the duration, wounds can't be healed, the hole can not be filled, etc. But it does not mean the thing automatically Heals, fills in, or whatever after the duration expires. The few spells where the perdo duration does revert are things like Invisibility, making something weightless, etc. things where the item can not normally have that trait. Relevant text from p78 of Corebook:
Perdo magic is easier if the thing can nat-urally lose the property destroyed. Thus, it is easier to kill a person than to remove his weight while leaving his other properties intact, because the first can occur naturally while the second cannot. Further, destroying properties that a thing cannot naturally lose falls under the Limit of Essential Nature (see page 79), and thus cannot be permanent; the destroyed properties return by themselves at the end of the spell's duration.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I wish the sustain and suppress guidelines were Creo and Perdo respectively because I really do wish less was lumped into Rego but that is not RAW.
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I don't see anything here that says Perdo effects can only destroy permanently. Typically the system allows you to chose when the effect is designed. Typically easier/better to leave the wound there but a "nice" Magi might want to just intimidate and leave his victim un-injured at the end of it all.
As you put it, there is the flaw that already makes all the Perdo behave that way. Kinda of an easy proof that Perdo can do this.
W
A pit opened for
duration Moon with a Perdo Terram spell can-
not be filled in with earth for that period; any
more earth dumped in it is destroyed as well.
Wood, animal products, or water could fill it,
though, as they are not of the same Form as the
spell. The destroyed earth still does not reap-
pear at the expiration of the spell.
Core rule book, p112
Non-permanent destruction is only for those properties that can't be lost naturally.
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I agree that if the spell is designed to destroy the earth, it does not reappear at the end of the duration. Still think that if the spell is designed to "suspend the existence of" it can be designed to reappear at the end of duration.
Same as a rego with a duration could teleport you to an area and bring you back at the end of the duration if effect is designed that way.
We are just not used to see these effects with a duration as it adds difficulty to the effect as higher level, some will argue makes them less effective and have niche use cases.
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You can't design a Perso spell what kills people, but only for as long as the duration.
"Suspend" - as you mentioned - is a Rego effect. Perdo can and will destroy something what can be naturally destroyed. You need duration if you want to destroy something (a property of a thing ex: its weight) what naturally cannot be destroyed, or if you want destroy every single thing getting into a part of space.
It is not about spell design. You can't design a spell in contradiction of the used Technique itself.
@ErikT 's example from p. 112. is an excellent one! Please also refer to CRB, p. 78. "PERDO (PE) “I DESTROY” part.
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Fwiw you can absolutely give someone a wound (or at a minimum the appearance of one) that goes away at the end of the duration with muto
Can't?
We have a cannon exemple HoH:MC p.87
Harmless Magic Minor, Hermetic The character’s Perdo spells cannot permanently destroy anything; they temporarily disrupt the target, like Perdo Imaginem magic, but as soon as the duration has passed the target returns to its natural state as if nothing had happened, like a Muto effect.
The passage in the corebook p.112 & p.78 do not explicitly rule that Perdo can not be temporally. I read that Perdo does not destroy the essential nature of things so it will return after some time. Things like skills or memories. Ground that is destroyed will remain destroyed. If a Perdo effect has a dirt destruction effect with a duration, all the dirt poured in is forever destroyed also even as the duration ends. But if the effect is built to just destroy the dirt temporally, I see no reason why it would not just re-appear at the end of the duration exactly as the Harmless flaw does.
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What you're saying is contradictory to what Harmless Magic says. Specifically
This weakness can be a boon to a crafty character.
It can't be a boon if everyone can do this. Why can it be a boon to a craft character? Because you can now do something Hermetic magic cannot normally do, so you might be able to manage something usual through it.
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By boon they just mean that harmless Perdo can still be useful in some cases... so useful that some might actually want to design it this way but in most cases it is less useful than "normal" Perdo magic and you have to add magnitudes for duration.
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Corebook p78 says that Perdo effects that destroy properties of items that the item cannot normally lose, those effects must be non-permanent.
The example on p112 shows that other Perdo effects are always permanent.
You cannot, for example, invent a spell that destroys dirt temporarily. Doing that would contradict what p112 says.
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Talk about scamming the yokels -- 'heal' the blind, 'resurrect' the dead, 'cure' a plague. Does a PeCo 20 'Inflict an incapacitating wound' get worse without treatment? Does a person who dies from that stay dead? Or someone with a PeCo plague, who passes it to someone else? If a person has a PeCo incapacitating wound for Moon duration, can their condition even change at all?
Of course a mage with Harmless Magic can still easily do real damage with a Pilum of Fire.
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Your interpretation of "Always" in that context contradicts harmless magic while mine does not.
Just to add a bit of clarity, I think the Always there refers to effects that are designed to destroy (forever), even with a duration to the effect, will leave the destroyed material destroyed at the end of said duration. It does not preclude perdo effects to be designed so that the material always return at the end of the effect, mimicking the harmless flaw.
Ya. These effects do allow for a lot of fun stuff. Not low levels... the Dead rising in concentration duration is level 50 but I'd still tag it as a ritual under the powerful effect tag.
I can see the magi doing this to folks and asking them what they saw in order to investigate the afterlife or to ask a question to angels or demons or past loved ones.
W
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Plenty of virtues modify the way some rule or other works for charecters that have them, and this is one of them. there's no contradiction.
You can tell because it does not required a very tortured interpretation of what the word always means
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My reading is that you can't choose if a Perdo effect is to be permamnent or not. If it destroys a property that the target couldn't lose naturally, it is non-permanent. Otherwise it is permanent.
Harmless magic creates an exception to the standard rules, making all (non-Ritual) Perdo effects non-permanent. This is mostly a drawback (which is why it is a flaw), but can actually be useful to a clever magus.
There is nothing in the rules indicating that you can pick and choose if a Perdo spell is non-permanent or not. But several parts (that have already been pointed out) indicating otherwise.
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But if what you claimed before is true, it isn't useful ever. It's only not always detrimental, but never useful. So now you're now agreeing with my statement and disagreeing with your prior statement, even if you don't realize it.
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What I'm saying is that the flaw, harmless Perdo, still allows some case uses of Perdo magic, that are useful. I also am of the opinion that Perdo magics can, without the said flaw, do all the same effects that the flaw discusses. Thinking otherwise that the flaw would grant capacities akin to a major hermetic merit would not be aligned to what flaws typically do.
Also, thinking that Perdo magic would be the only technique that does not allow an effect to return to original state at the end of duration, would also be exotic.
Creo effects that create something, return to nothingness at end of duration, except with vis.
Muto effects typically return to original state
Rego effects can be designed to return to origin at end of duration
Yet Perdo would be barred from the same 'return to original state'?
I see how we could interpret it that way. I just think it fits better if it is aligned with the rest.
W
Now you're saying it would never be useful. A moment ago you said "it would be useful in some cases." So what is the intent of "this weakness can be a boon to a crafty character" if it can never be a boon?
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The Flaw description simply points out that most use cases of Perdo do not have a duration requirement but as they point out, there are useful effects in there and having those effects in your arsenal can be a boon to the character... as it would be for any character.
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Callen and ErikT are correct, william.
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