Boundary Target

Well, imagine a covenant on a mountain peak. What if you use a rego terram.spell with enough size magnitude to move the mountain a few miles away?

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From tL&tL, p.20:

one Merinita magus even moved a hill two miles south!
[to make access to a vis source easier]

The move a mountain example is a fun case where we can have a conversation about whether its better to have a flying aegis, or whether enabling another magi moving your covenant outside of your warded boundary without needing to penetrate is better.

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OK, here is an expanded Container Targets insert. Comments?

Container Targets

Spells with "container" Targets, including Circle, Room, Structure, and Boundary, can work in one of two ways.

First, they can affect any valid target within the Target container at the time of casting, and continue to affect those targets even if they leave the original Target area, for as long as the spell lasts. It does not affect anything that enters the Target container later, even if the spell is still in effect.

Second, they can affect any valid target within the Target container during the spell's period of effect. In this case, a valid target that leaves the container ceases to be affected by the spell, and a valid target that enters (or re-enters) the container is affected, until it leaves or the spell expires.

The way that a particular spell works is fixed when it is designed, and cannot be changed by the casting magus, although a spell working in one way is similar to a spell that is identical apart from working in the other, and so knowledge of one gives a bonus to inventing the other.

For example, a spell to put pink dots on people's foreheads with Target: Room and Duration: Moon could work in two ways. In the version that works in the first way, everyone in the room (on whom the spell Penetrates) at the time of casting gets a pink dot on their forehead, and this pink dot remains on their forehead until the new moon and full moon have both set. In the version that works in the second way, anyone who is inside the room (on whom the spell Penetrates) until the new moon and full moon have both set gets a pink dot on their forehead, even if they were not in the room when the spell was cast. When they leave the room, the pink dot disappears, although it reappears if they go back into the room. These two versions are two different spells, and a maga who wants to cast both (and cannot reliably cast them spontaneously) needs to create two spells.

If the container ceases to exist as a container before the spell duration ends, the effect depends on the type of spell. If it is of the second type, the spell ends when the container ceases to exist. For example, removing the roof and one wall of a Room would mean that there was no longer a Room, as would placing a wall down the middle of the room. If it is of the first type, the spell is unaffected, unless the Target is Circle, in which case it ends when the circle is broken.

Most containers do not normally move, but they can. A Structure, for example, can be a ship. This is irrelevant to spells of the first type, which affect anything within the container at the time of casting, no matter what happens after that. Spells of the second type move with the container. Note that wards, including Aegis of the Hearth, are all of the first type, and target the interior of the container at the time of casting. If the container moves, part of it moves outside the ward. (Note also that, in Mythic Europe, the earth neither spins nor moves through space: things that do not move relative to the earth do not move at all.)

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Do you mean Ring instead of Circle?

I like the content!

Spells "of first type" and "of second type" are excellent for discussing it.

But perhaps this classification could be rephrased in the later rule? Perhaps classifying spell containers instead of spells: "spell of first type" => "container for casting duration" or briefly "casting container", and "spell of second type" => "container for effect duration" or briefly "effect container"?

So... you can't have wards on containers that move with them?
For example, you can't ward a ship against fire?
I just fail to understand the purpose behind this clause :frowning:

Other than this it seems a very fine resolution of the issue.

Anyway, it is currently valid also for T: Circle alone, independent of D: Ring.

A ship is also an Individual, so you certainly can ward it against fire, and the ward will move with it. (Individual is not a container Target.) That won't ward everything on the ship against fire, though. Which is a good thing, because it allows you to cook. It allows you to build campfires on the deck, in fact.

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And that spell for people is already on ArM5 p.145: Ward against Heat and Flames. :wink:

Floating campfires.

Ok, but it does mean that if you have a mobile setting, wards can't just be placed on "places". E.g. one effectively can't ward a ship's cabin against demons, or against vermin. One cannot ward a chest against demons, or vermin, unless the chest is left undisturbed. Also, again, one cannot protect with an Aegis a covenant on a floating island like Delos.

I'm just trying to understand: what's the purpose of this explicit provision against wards on moving containers? It seems it should be a game balance issue, because it certainly adds complexity, it certainly removes play options, and probably removes "mythic-ness". But I don't see any particular balance issue.
EDIT: or perhaps the "afterimage effect" is what you are after? There's some reason for having the physical space that was occupied by the chest, when the chest was warded, remain warded after the chest is moved and possibly destroyed? I don't know, I just fail to see where's the snag.

Looks pretty good. Much more overall consistency. I can think of a spell or two that will need to be added to the errata if this change goes through, but not many.

If Aegis of the Hearth is of the first kind, how come it affects creatures and spells trying to enter the Aegis well after it has been cast?
Wards protecting against things entering the warded structure (like typical ring/circle wards do) do not seem to fit into this framework either since they work just fine against creatures that never were inside the circle at any time.

What is the reason for having some spells not move with their container? What problem is that intended to fix?

So, draw a circle inside your lab, cast your spell, take a walk and leave your circle there sustaining your permanent effect on you?

It is meant to be thus:

The effect does not target "creatures and spells trying to enter the wards or Aegis".

Unless a real lab rat, your apprentice or your enemy's familiar breaks it ... by accident or intentionally.

As stated above one could use a touch, non-ring duration, individual ward on a chest. Opening the chest may break the ward, YSMV, but a demon or rat affected by the ward could not open or gnaw their way in. A ward of this sort could be enchanted into the onject.

Edited to erase a lot of words caused by my misreading of one word in a post.

These are not the droids you are looking for, carry on.

I had initially written rats, but I mean "vermin". In particular, I was thinking of ants, that have an incredible ability to sneak into anything less than ... hermetically closed :slight_smile: