Breakthrough questions

I was completely ignoring the specific breakthroughs the character is aiming at, but rather focusing on the general question: can the researcher choose the "source" of the effect yielded by an insight (device, spell, etc.)?

I don't know if I would let a character only let insight sources that lead to enchantments. He would find not a few sources that lead to spells, and he chooses to not use them, that's up to him. It will make his research take longer, but not make it impossible.

What I am saying (and on this we disagree) is that the only thing that is "fixed" for a given Insight is the effect. The way I read the rules is that the same effect can, at the researcher's option, be instilled as an enchantment in a device, created as a formulaic spell, etc. Obviously, sometimes not all options are open for a given effect: e.g. one generally can't instill a Ritual effect into a device.

So, the question is not whether the researcher finds "not a few sources that lead to spells", but whether he finds mostly sources of insight leading to effects that can only be produced as spells. Generally speaking, I believe this runs against the rules "as suggested", that the research should advance the saga in a fun way. Finding unusable source after unusable source might be fun for your troupe, certainly not for mine :slight_smile:

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A lot of the effects you end up getting will be unusable for other reasons, such as a detrimental side effect. What do you do in that case? Reroll because it’s “not fun”?

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Actually, no. Enchantment rules explictly allow to design and imprint an effect in an enchanted device even if you don't know a spell that mimics it. Examples of Integration effects you research for the Ritual Items breakthrough all involve creating charged items inspired by Folk Witch potions that include ritual effects. Therefore, the character does not need to know any ritual spells to research this breakthrough.

That's because you can spontaneous any spell your Arts allow you. But Ritual spells have to be researched to be able to cast. You can't spontaneously cast any ritual spells, no matter how high your Arts are.
I would never allow you to imbue a ritual effect without having the spell.

Corebook, p. 98.

"The effects instilled in enchanted items are designed like spells, but they are not spells. In particular, a magus may instill an effect in a device even if he does not know a spell with the same effect. Designing an effect takes no time above and beyond the time spent to instill the effect in the item.

Hedge Magic Revised Edition, pp. 53-54.

Ritual Items Integration effects:

Suitable laboratory projects that may be produced from Insights towards this breakthrough include:

Stout Potion
CrCo Level 60
Pen +0, charged item.
R: Touch, D: Momentary, T: Individual, Ritual
The character who drinks this dark, bitter potion has his Stamina increased by 1 to a maximum of +5.
(Effect: Base 55, +1 Touch)

Oil of Prometheus
CrIg Level 60
Pen +0, charged item.
R: Touch, D: Diameter, T: Boundary, Ritual
This oil is carefully poured onto the ground at a Boundary — a city wall, or
the edge of a forest, for example — which erupts into flame. From the site of ignition,
which is about a pace in diameter, the conflagration rapidly spreads through the
Boundary doubling in diameter every round until it covers an area up to 60 miles in diameter.
The fire burns incredibly fiercely (+20 damage) for the Duration of the effect — even stones burn and iron melts. When the effect expires the fire no longer spreads with supernatural speed or heat, but any
fires begun continue to burn naturally. The potion must be poured on the edge of a defined Boundary to have an effect (see ArM5, page 113).
(Effect: Base 15, +1 Touch, +1 Diameter,
+4 Boundary, +3 Size)

Dram of the Lion
MuCo(An) 35
Pen +0, charged item.
R: Touch, D: Year, T: Individual, Ritual
Drinking this potion causes the character to change into a lion for a year. When the
character returns to normal, he may temporarily retain some leonine aspect.
(Effect: Base 10, +1 Touch, +4 Year)

It seems plain to me from the combination of these rules that the character can research this integration by creating charged items that imitate Folk Witch potions with imbued ritual effects without any need to know a ritual spell that imitates the effect. They just need to have the relevant Arts and a good enough Lab Total. Once they are done with the breakthrough, they can make charged items with any ritual effect they can think of and design. Ritual spells never need enter the picture. Your interpretation seems to impose an unduly and excessive burden on the character that is not justified by RAW. Hence, I do not care to give it any weight IMS.

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What? There is no general requirement whatsoever that you have to be able to cast a corresponding spell in order to invest an effect into a device.
Just think of Verditius the founder. He never learned to cast a single spell (spontaneous or not), yet was one of the best creators of magic items ever.

A magus with the flaws Unstructured Caster, Rigid Magic, Weak Spontaneous Magic, and Difficult Spontaneous Magic will not be able to cast any spells, yet there is nothing stopping him from creating enchanted devices.

By the way, a technical question. Assuming a somewhat optimized build for insight research (e.g. most insight rolls are successes) and enchanting, how much time do you expect a typical Major (45 pts) breakthrough is going to take, if all of the insight effects are enchanted devices? Same question for Hermetic (60 pts) and Minor (30 pts) breakthroughs.

That depends on the magnitude of the insights being gained.

I suppose so. Although insight effects for the breakthroughs I fancy are all over the place. Quick Charged Items have no effects explicitly described, although since they use chartae, they shall likely be low magnitude (20 or less). The examples for Ritual Items potions are high magnitude (50-60). AM and HMRE give no clear guidelines for Hermetic Rune Magic, although Vitkir effects tend to be relatively high magnitude. Fertility Magic effects tend to be low magnitude. Sense of the Mystic and Energy Magic tend to be medium level. Conciatta's effect vary condiderably, although these breakthrough are admittably more spell-oriented. Hermetic viresculture seem rather low-level.

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I would assume that you would require new sources of insight when fully integrating your breakthrough, since (narratively) you have already extracted all of the insight and aid you can from the original insights to make the breakthrough.

With regards to Weak Scholar- I personally would go with a major flaw for the first script, since that will pay good dividends for several scripts (assuming you are willing to undergo the incredibly dangerous process of experimenting with mystery scripts). I prefer flavorful supernatural flaws, like the one that makes you need to eat vis to live.

Mechanically, you might as well. Since this is a solo effort, you don't have to worry about the "Flaw is not a flaw" thing.

As it concerns initiation scripts and their Ordeals, my PC has a complex situation since he is simultaneously pursuing two initiation paths, the Merinita one and the Principles Lore one. For the latter one, he discovered Fortunata's scripts in the related quest, then defeated a corrupt branch of the Children of Hermes and looted their script library. He seized various scripts the Cult acquired from multiple sources and adapted them to PL.

I am currently doing a retroactive revision of the character's story and further planning for solo continuation of the story. Please take into account it is an ongoing effort so I might change my mind about anything. Initiations are listed in no particular order. Since it partially is a revised backstory, I do not care atm to keep a record of the exact Initiation sequence and the Quests.

Order Breakthroughs: Fertile Longevity Ritual; Subtle Opening.

Characteristics: Int +3, Per +1, Pre +3, Com +3, Str -3, Sta +3, Dex -3, Qik -2

(I might trade favors with CrCo/CrMe specialists to optimize scores at some point or do it myself once I unlock Ritual Items)

House: Merinita (former Ex Miscellanea).

Arts: generalist build.

Abilities: Ablating, Artes Liberales, Athletics, Awareness, Binding, Brawl, Charm, Chirurgy, Chthonic Magic, Commanding, Comprehend Magic, Concentration, Dominion Lore, Faerie Lore, Faerie Magic, Finesse, Guile, House Merinita Lore, Infernal Lore, Latin, Magic Lore, Magic Theory, Medicine, Mythic Herbalism, Order of Hermes Lore, Parma Magica, Penetration, Persona, Philosophiae, Principles Lore, Second Sight, Shapeshifter, Sihr, Stealth, Summoning (Spirit), Survival, Swim.

Starting Virtues:

Cailleach Magic (3)

Chthonic Magic (3)

Faerie Magic (1)

Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic (3)

Subtle Opening (1)

Strong Faerie Blood (Sidhe) (3)

Starting Flaws:

Ambitious (Minor) (-1)

Covenant Upbringing (-1)

Hedge Wizard

Lesser Malediction (iron and holy objects cause pain) (-1)

Pagan (-3)

Rigid Magic (-3)

Seeker (-1)

Unstructured Caster (-3)

Merinita Mystery Virtues & Ordeals:

Alluring to Faeries (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Alluring to Magical Beings (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Animae Magic (3)

Ordeals: Faerie Friend (-1); Prohibition (never break his word) (-1)

Arcadian Travel (1)

Ordeals: Fear (closed spaces) (-1); Arcane Connection (location of initiation) (-1)

Binding the Gift (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Charm Magic (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Gentle Gift (3)

Ordeals: Offensive to Divine, Infernal, and Human Beings (equivalent to two Minor Flaws according to author) (-2)

Glamour (3)

Ordeals: Vulnerable Magic (consecrated ground) (-3)

Hidden Ways and Places (Diedne equivalent of Arcadian Travel for the Magic Realm; see Sub Rosa #13) (1)

Ordeals: Motion Sickness (-1)

Spell Timing (1)

Ordeals: Faerie Metamorphosis (-1); Poor Memory (faces) (-1); Warped Magic (dreamlike) (-1)

Unaging (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Ways of the Forest (3)

Ordeals: Deleterious Circumstances (in a city) (-1); Divine Stigmatic (-1)

Principles Lore Mystery Virtues & Ordeals:

“Hermetic Prodigy” (Major Virtue Package): Book Learner (1); Free Study (1); Study Bonus (1)

Ordeals: Ability Block (Martial Abilities) (-1); Master of None (-1)

“Prodigy Student” (Major Virtue Package): Apt Student (1); Good Teacher (1); Independent Study (1)

Ordeals: Unspecialized (-1); Weak Scholar (-1)

“Research Prodigy” (Major Virtue Package): Affinity with Magic Theory (1); Inventive Genius (1); Puissant Magic Theory (1)

Ordeals: Exciting Experimentation (-1); Prone to Chance (-1)

Cautious Sorcerer (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Hermetic Alchemy (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Inscription on the Soul (1)

Ordeals: Deleterious Circumstances (when not touching talisman) (-1)

Lesser Elixir (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Major Magical Focus (Damage) (3)

Ordeals: Ambitious (Major) (-2); Lecherous (Minor) (-1); Wrathful (Minor) (-1)

Puissant Principles Lore (1)

Ordeals: Vow (resurrect the Principles) (-1)

Sensory Magic (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Spirit Familiar (1)

Ordeals: N/A

Optional Additions:

(Principles Lore) "Covert Magic" (Major Virtue Package): Quiet Magic (x2) (2); Subtle Magic (1)

Ordeals: ???

(Merinita/Principles Lore) Mystical Choreography (1)

Ordeals: ???

(Merinita) Performance Magic (Music) (1)

Ordeals: ???

(Merinita) Ways of the Mountain (3)

Ordeals: ???

Planned continuation:

Bind Magical Creatures (3)

Ordeals: N/A

Celestial Magic (3)

Ordeals: Environmental Sensitivity (bad air) (-1); Magic Spirit Companion (-1); Nocturnal (-1)

Durable External Soul (3)

Ordeals: Supernatural Nuisance (-3); Visions (-1)

External Soul (3)

Ordeals: N/A

Great Elixir (3)

Ordeals: Viaticarus (-1); Vulnerability to Folk Tradition (-1)

Major Philosophic Alchemy (3)

Ordeals: Weak Magic Resistance (touching filth) (-3)

Possible but Far-off Additions:

Consummate Talisman (3)

Ordeal: Necessary Condition (must wield talisman) (-3)

Invocation Magic (3)

Ordeal:???

Symbolic Magic (3)

Ordeal:???

Synthemata Magic (3)

Ordeal:???

Miscellaneous Ordeal Ideas:

Depraved (Minor) (-1)

Greater Malediction (keep any bargain made) (-3)

Proud (Minor) (-1)

Restriction (being naked) (-3)

Restriction (consecrated ground) (-3)

Susceptibility to Sunlight (-1)

Vow (properly train apprentices) (-1)

Weak Magic Resistance (someone standing on their shadow) (-3)

Achieved Breakthroughs:

Adamic Language

Ptolemaic Coordinates

Planned Breakthroughs:

Quick Charged Items (1) (40)

Ritual Items (1) (45)

Hermetic Rune Magic (3) (45)

Fertility Ritual Magic (1) (35)

Hermetic Viresculture (45)

Optional Additions:

Confluence of the Realms (1) (30)

Energy Magic (1) (55)

Hermetic Realm Initiation (3) (60)

Insight of the Realms (1) (30)

Sense of the Mystic (3) (45)

True Understanding of the Realms (3) (30/45)

Unification of the Realms (45/60)

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I see you're aiming for alchemical immortality. I'm curious about why you favor that over the Becoming. In my game, a player completed that ritual and it seems generally better than the magical forms of immortality.

Easy to say. Becoming is absolutely terrible for a spont-only specialist like my PC, since it does not allow to spend Fatigue or cast spont magic that is not similar to spells you know. RoP: F failed to correct these problem by providing Faerie abilities that allow to use Fatigue or use magic creatively. Hence, Becoming is a no-no for my concept; optimized spont specialization and forsaking of spells (except for charged items emulation) are non-negotiable cornerstones.

I acknowledge that if these issues did not exist, Becoming would be as good for my PC as alchemical immortality. My PC is too fond of sensual pleausures, independence, and adventures for Ascension to the Hall of Heroes and Living Ghost to be good options. Theoretically speaking, however, I have thought of possible ways to minimize the Haunt problem (living corpse, instant travel to Haunt devices, Canaanite Magic). Even so, LG would be a suboptimal backup option.

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That's an excellent point, thank you. I had forgotten the similar spell restriction for spontaneous spells, since my player's spell list is longer than my arm.

Yeah. And inability to use Fatigue is just as terrible if you have Cailleach/Diedne Magic and LLSM and rely on them to cast high-magnitude sponts.