Buying Confidence

Check out the aftermath of Vituperation on p.95: "Once this ordeal is over, the character’s Confidence Score may be increased by one, if it is less than either his Warping Score or his Decrepitude."

Goodie! I knew I'd missed a trick there.

I think this approach is utterly wrong. Self-Confident is a Virtue certainly worth as much as the other House benefits and should be compared to Puissant MT, Puissant Creo or Hermetic Prestige. None of those are worth a mere 12 xp.

Lets use this fable: I have a MM10 spirit familiar. I will use my Hekate Cord to transfer some Might so it can become a MM11 creature. After a few months it's back to full. Rinse, repeat.

Or: Nice, so this MM40 dragon has spent all his Might points but it wasn't enough to defeat you. Well now he's a MM39 dragon with all his Might points back!

The container isn't the content.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not equating the value of that Virtue to XP. And you can't actually increase Confidence without expending Confidence Points, as if they were XP. A character might receive 2-3 Confidence points in a session, but in my experience, not every character is involved in every session. A lot of times they are off scene, especially in troupe style play where the magus in the lab, and the companion is off on a quest or other story that will be played at the next session. And time is variable, the last session that the character was in may have been last week in game time or it might be 3 years or more, or anything in between. Putting it in those terms, with the fact that someone, to get from 1 to 2 Confidence score has to acquire 10 more confidence points, spending only 1, can then change their Confidence Score from 1 to 2 doesn't cheapen the Tytalus Virtue.

I'm merely trying to establish a Rubric for raising the Confidence Score. And, from getting 10 confidence points and spending them at the right time to raise the score from 1 to 2 is going to probably be closer to the Tytalus experience, as is suggested in the RAW.

And if you don't like the idea, you're free to not use it, but you could propose something, some method for increasing confidence that isn't anything more than SG/troupe fiat...

{oh well - submitted too fast as a full quote}

Yes, that is true. There's still something wrong with it, as the container is the content. I don't know how to resolve it exactly.

I think hoarding is wrong, you want players to acts in character (accumulate) but also revel in risky stories (spend). I would freely let Confidence come back, ... Yes, Reputation behaves that way on ArM5 p167... So when you spend a Confidence Point the "right" way, it should count toward raising your Confidence Score like Reputation works.

You see, that way the container is not the content, you need a transformative action, a gift of flair to the Troupe.

Personally, I'm still getting a handle on how to dole out Confidence. So, I don't mind my proposal being ripped apart, I'm just looking for a solid way of raising it instead of judging it to be similar to what the Tytalus apprentice did for 15 (or less) years.

I'd love to write that I wasn't sure I was following the your logic, but in this case I'm afraid I must instead state that I'm sure I don't follow your logic.
Why would characters that never leave the lab gain Confidence for?
Are you perhaps trying for "game balance" between magi and companions?

Instead of hoarding confidence to buy up Confidence, perhaps base it on confidence spent?
Or possibly rolls succeeding due to spent confidence?

I must prefer that is the version I do prefer.

Characters who never leave the lab wouldn't gain confidence, because, simply, they wouldn't gain Confidence points.
No, I don't strive for game balance. And all of my magi do leave the labs. Story flaws require it. And then, there's the issue that you need to do some things yourself. Some players/characters will never have an interest in doing this. I'm not trying to achieve game balance at all.

If I allow it whenever Confidence is spent, then, there is no cost to them, and players may be more likely to throw confidence on rolls that are less meaningful. Also, keep in mind, that by definition, Confidence points are only spent in situations where the result is successful, otherwise confidence is never spent. So a Confidence point being spent allows them to realize two benefits, the favorable result of the die roll, and it advances them towards earning more confidence.
I'm trying to walk the line of having characters make hard choices. Spend confidence or preserve it in hopes of raising confidence some day, so you can spend more later. Some characters will never preserve their confidence, trying to raise the score, others might focus on raising their score until it is high enough, and then accumulate and spend as desired.

Fiat is...
I prefer to have something more rational behind the decision. I can declare by fiat that the world is filled with pink ponies. But that breaks certain things. Finally, a set of rules gives everyone access to the same opportunities, but it doesn't require them to do anything about it, if they don't want to do anything.

I prefer fiat as well, though perhaps the reason why silly fiat doesn't really worry me, is because it would have to be troupe fiat.
And knowing me, I'd probably be the veto anyway.

As for the spending confidence to increase confidence... I don't know.
On one hand, it seems silly to reward succes beyond succes itself.
On the other hand, it is confidence we're talking about - succeding would be what boosted it yes? Especially that really hard-earned succes.

Meh, I don't like it either way.
Confidence score by fiat, please.

But the problem with this is that a single season of adventure could garner 10 - 15 confidence points depending on how long your stories run. If it is a involved adventure taking say three weeks of story time, say 12 distinct scenes played by a character, if that player is awarded Confidence points after a session for reasons suggested in the core book pg. 20, even if they only got one for outstanding roleplaying, they would get 12 confidence XP. With that kind of build of confidence they would only have to go two or three adventures without using confidence and would be able to raise the trait to a three or four. At a level four Confidence (+12) there would be little point in rolling except to check for botches.

The problem with that progression is that a world filled by pink ponies is not a reasonable reward for having played a character true to who they are and you have driven them to accomplish amazing feats that become legends of the Order. Have you addressed True Faith in this fashion? Is there a experience point method for increasing True Faith? I haven't seen one. True Faith is increased, as far as I can tell, because throughout decades of story time, your character has endlessly worked and remained faithful to their god. If Confidence can so easily be summed up as a trait to raise with well saved XP then why not True Faith?

As for not doing things by fiat... the entire story that you run is by it's very nature fiat. You make it up as you go. Sure there are rules and game mechanics but the reasons why a duke does such and such, or a widow curses this person, or a demon harangues this mage are all decided and exposed by fiat.

I understand you want a mechanic and I suggested a method for doing so that frees up the Confidence score and returns it to the dignified place it deserves at the top of our character sheet. At the beginning of every story arc, allow each player to write down a driving goal for them to accomplish during the current story. It does not have to be physical it could be for example, a character with Fury to go the whole story without losing their restraint. Possibly a magi who has not been a leader among his covenmates chooses to take charge and make wise decisions for all during this time of crisis. It could even be as simple as striving to find that one last key ingredient for their potion.

Whatever it be, when at the end of the story arc, if they have accomplished their goal, then they are awarded a single XP "dot" next to their Confidence score. When they have enough "dots" to purchase the next level of Confidence as per Ability chart, then congrats! You worked hard and have succeeded so many times now you KNOW you are bad ass!

I was just thinking something similar actually.

Really?
I gotte have a magus finish a project some time then...

Constantine perhaps?

Maybe take it a step further. If they accomplished the goal, they get the dot. If they used Confidence, they get two. It will still take a long while to raise Confidence at least 5 stories to go from 1 to two, assuming they use Confidence in every story. In some sagas that can be several years, easily.

I like this version, assuming a "non-fiat" solution is needed.

I have a preference for non-fiat solutions. It provides a context for players to know what's possible and the framework that makes it possible. It saves discussion which might erupt at a later time. If players accept the House rule at the beginning, they all know the score. If there is no rule, and a player advances a desire to do this, for any number of reasons, it can sometimes be difficult to develop consensus within the troupe. I dislike being the rules overlord, I'll enforce rules, or suggest changes to rules that I don't feel work, and leave it up to the group to decide what to do. Oftentimes my suggestion gets heavily modified to something we can all agree on...

That is actually kinda opposite what I would say. I mean if they succeeded at a task without using Confidence then I would award them more Confidence XP. I mean they did well without have to fall back on a bonus after all. I mean if the requisite to get a additional XP of Confidence XP is to have spent Confidence then of course all the players will be using Confidence as much as possible.

I think succeeding on your skill alone improves your confidence generally, where as failing and then having to basically use force of will to simply make something happen or hell just make your success a better success, seems like that would end up with you doubting your ability to succeed without struggling.