Can you teach the Hermetic Arts piecemeal to a Gifted person, rather than Opening

[OneShot]

@Argentius

This simply isn't the case. The hermetic breakthrough is from the integration of solomonic magic and grants the ability to "initiate others into new Supernatural or Hermetic Virtues without the secrecy and lore of a Mystery Cult.". The breakthrough is just a new method of acquiring virtues. The latter part is just an example of how this might be applied. The breakthrough doesn't create virtues, or create a new category of virtues that require this kind of method to be used.

You read TC&TG p.45 Hermetic Realm Integration out of its context. "Soon powerful magi may even learn to teach Hermetic magic to the unGifted, by initiating them into each Art." describes a consequence of the Hermetic Breakthrough outlined in the phrase before.

You know, that by ArM5 p.36 Supernatural Virtues can be taken at character creation for every character. This requires, that those Supernatural Virtues introduced later, which must not be taken by every companion at character creation - like A&A p.134 Hermetic Inclination in (Form) - need to be flagged as such. Hence they need to be at the verrry least precisely written down first.
If Hermetic Arts were somehow - tacitly - understood as bestowed by Virtues before the Hermetic Breakthrough Hermetic Realm Integration, every companion could have had them: that is clearly not the case.

Space in Ars Magica books is always limited: especially so for long-shot perspectives like the Hermetic Realm Integration. The "Soon ..." phrase concluding its description does certainly not in passing postulate Virtues bestowing Hermetic Arts before that Hermetic Breakthrough, but quickly points out, how a saga can progress once it was achieved.

[Argentius]

We're arguing at cross purposes here. There's several distinct parts to this and I don't think we actually disagree on most of them. Here are the key points as I see them:

1. Arts can be granted by supernatural virtues in a general sense and this allows those without the gift to acquire arts. Some traditions already have the means to do so like the Learned Magicians, or Gruagachan.
2. Arts can also be granted by opening the gift, in which case no virtues are required or granted - the gifted person simply gets all the arts directly.
3. Not all traditions have developed these virtues in practice, such as Rune Magic or Hermetic Magic which practice only the opening of the gift as a means of acquiring the arts.
4. For these traditions breakthroughs would be required to generate these virtues and the initiations to grant them.

I am not and have not been trying to argue that these virtues already exist in Mythic Europe in 1220, or that opening the gift grants these virtues (although as you'll see below I think it may be equivalent to granted free virtue equivalents). Only that these virtues can in theory exist, if someone discovers them.

We are in disagreement over the Hermetic Realm Integration, though. You're right that it's a context problem but not the way you suggest. If you actually read the result of the breakthrough it has nothing to do with allowing hermetic arts to be granted by virtue - that's just the example used because it's something so extreme to do with mystery initiations (it would inflict an excessive number of flaws and require a huge investment).

The result of the breakthrough is the following major virtue:

"The magus may initiate students into Virtues in the same way sahirs do, by convincing a spirit to accompany the student into the Magic Realm. This uses the character’s Rego Vim Lab Total instead of Solomonic Travel, and substitutes Magic Theory for Magic Lore, but otherwise works the same way: costing vis, reducing the spirit’s Might Score, and Warping the student."

The thing it allows magi to replicate is this:

"The process involves the teacher summoning a willing spirit to carry the student, in spirit form, into the Magic Realm. During the season, the student undergoes a sort of dream journey... The experience is very similar to what happens to Hermetic magi when they experience Twilight... While the student is in this state, his teacher performs the opening ritual and calculates his Opening Total. If this is 30 or more, the student gains a Major Virtue associated with the Art of Solomon that is also possessed by the teacher, usually a Solomonic or a summoning art. With a total of 25, he gains the Major Virtue but
also receives a Minor Flaw. With only 15, he gains the Major Virtue and a Major Flaw. These Flaws should be tied to the student’s travels in the Magic Realm"

There's more about the vis cost and the warping inflicted that I've left out for brevity, but that's the key part. This in no way allows for virtues that were previously impossible to exist, in fact it requires that the virtues already exist and that the person initiating has the virtue in question. All it does is give a way to impart supernatural virtues that costs vis and warping instead of inflicting other flaws (assuming the magus is skilled enough to not also inflict flaws).

The critical part is the bits saying things like "the student gains a ___Virtue associated with the Art of Solomon that is also possessed by the teacher". Sahirs have both gifted and non-gifted members. Just like with magi gifted members have their arts opened, and therefore do not gain the virtues but just get the arts directly - but they can still use this method to grant those virtues to ungifted people. The implication is that they do, in fact, have these virtues but that they are granted as free virtues when the arts are opened. There is no reason for this not to be true for the opening of the gift in other traditions as well, and the section of the breakthrough text "Soon powerful magi may even learn to teach Hermetic magic to the unGifted, by initiating them into each Art" supports this - any magus with this method and good enough lab totals could pass on the (currently unused but theoretically possible) virtues associated with the hermetic arts just as gifted sahirs pass on the virtues that they themselves don't explicitly possess. This is not inconsistent with the core rules - we know that arts act like supernatural abilities to an extent in regards to learning new supernatural abilities, so it stands to reason that this is because arts actually are like supernatural abilities but are simply free virtues granted all at once on the opening of the gift.

[OneShot]

@Argentius

• Arts can be granted by supernatural virtues in a general sense and this allows those without the gift to acquire arts. Some traditions already have the means to do so like the Learned Magicians, or Gruagachan.
• Arts can also be granted by opening the gift, in which case no virtues are required or granted - the gifted person simply gets all the arts directly.
• Not all traditions have developed these virtues in practice, such as Rune Magic or Hermetic Magic which practice only the opening of the gift as a means of acquiring the arts.
• For these traditions breakthroughs would be required to generate these virtues and the initiations to grant them.

I am not and have not been trying to argue that these virtues already exist in Mythic Europe in 1220, or that opening the gift grants these virtues (although as you'll see below I think it may be equivalent to granted free virtue equivalents). Only that these virtues can in theory exist, if someone discovers them.

Provided that you agree on this:

@OneShot

Virtues are rules constructs. If no player or SG can use a Virtue as such (in character building, initiation or other), discussing its 'existence' just doesn't make sense.

we can agree on the list above, too.

@Argentius

If you actually read the result of the breakthrough it has nothing to do with allowing hermetic arts to be granted by virtue - that's just the example used because it's something so extreme to do with mystery initiations (it would inflict an excessive number of flaws and require a huge investment).

I wrote:

@OneShot

"Soon powerful magi may even learn to teach Hermetic magic to the unGifted, by initiating them into each Art." describes a consequence of the Hermetic Breakthrough outlined in the phrase before.

So we might agree here, too.

You quote in great detail (from TC&TC p.42) the way, how the Major Hermetic Virtue Hermetic Realm Initiation operates. This is not very important for this thread, so I omit it.

@Argentius

The critical part is the bits saying things like "the student gains a ___Virtue associated with the Art of Solomon that is also possessed by the teacher ". Sahirs have both gifted and non-gifted members. Just like with magi gifted members have their arts opened, and therefore do not gain the virtues but just get the arts directly - but they can still use this method to grant those virtues to ungifted people . The implication is that they do, in fact, have these virtues but that they are granted as free virtues when the arts are opened. There is no reason for this not to be true for the opening of the gift in other traditions as well, and the section of the breakthrough text "Soon powerful magi may even learn to teach Hermetic magic to the unGifted, by initiating them into each Art" supports this

As long as this is only relevant for the Hermetic Arts after the Hermetic Breakthrough Hermetic Realm Initiation, I certainly don't care: see above. In particular so, because with the last consequence of Hermetic Realm Initiation unGifted students can be initiated to the Hermetic Arts - so excluding these at creation of unGifted characters does not make much sense any more.

But perhaps I should conclude by quoting from HoH:TL p.27 Breakthroughs: "It is important to discuss your idea and the specific Breakthrough you are attempting with your troupe. Does the group want a Lesser Limit broken, for example, or will a teachable Hermetic Virtue upset the nature of the game?"

[Argentius]

Obviously you shouldn't include anything in a game (not just of Ars Magica, but speaking generally) unless the group is happy to include it. That's a bit beside the point, though - my original point several comments ago was just that based on the way different things are presented the (at least theoretical) existence of virtue equivalents of arts as a general principle is a simple and consistent framework that synchronises all the magical traditions in the game, and I haven't seen any suggestion for an alternative explanation, or an explanation why hermetic magic would be fundamentally different from other magical traditions.

Nobody has to agree or use this idea if they don't like it, and I have no plans to do anything with it in the near future - but I do think it is important to think about these kind of things to maintain internal consistency when creating new rules.

I still don't agree that the hermetic arts as virtues require Hermetic Realm Initiation as a breakthrough to exist or to be granted. If it was intended that this breakthrough allowed for these virtues to exists when they could not before this would be in the actual text of the breakthrough virtue rather than a bit of descriptive text elsewhere. My interpretation is (and has been consistently) that the "Soon..." refers to the fact that it is now practical to try and grant so many virtues, not that the Realm Initiation breakthrough is a necessary antecedent to the existence of the virtues in question. But we're arguing in circles here, so lets maybe just agree to disagree here.