Case 2: The Case of the Unfortunate Apprentices

[Berengar]

@ezzelino

@One Shot

So I move that planning to render down an apprentice for Vis be considered a more heinous crime than including three or more Deficiencies in her Arts
...
By Apprentices p. 35, producing very (3 or more Arts) Deficient Magi "threatens the healthy longevity of the Order" and is severely punishable because of that. Even more so is Euthanata's admitted rendering of apprentices for Vis.

What I fail to see is on what basis you assume that not "producing" a magus at all should be strictly worse than "producing" a crippled magus.

You did notice that the apprentices used as Vis sources were trained by other magi before, did you? And at least Horatia is on her way to be a fine maga - though you might move to gather more evidence about the others, if this is important to you.

[ezzelino]

@One Shot

@ezzelino

@One Shot

So I move that planning to render down an apprentice for Vis be considered a more heinous crime than including three or more Deficiencies in her Arts
...
By Apprentices p. 35, producing very (3 or more Arts) Deficient Magi "threatens the healthy longevity of the Order" and is severely punishable because of that. Even more so is Euthanata's admitted rendering of apprentices for Vis.

What I fail to see is on what basis you assume that not "producing" a magus at all should be strictly worse than "producing" a crippled magus.

You did notice that the apprentices used as Vis sources were trained by other magi before, did you?

I did notice it, but I fail to notice what it has to do with the issue at hand.

[Tellus]

@ezzelino

@Tellus

@ezzelino

From my understanding, it's not a Tribunal-specific addition to the Peripheral Code.

Since the peripheral code is always tribunal specific (though sometimes tribunals refer to eachother's peripheral codes), yes, yes it is.

Tellus, you are misunderstanding.
I'm saying that this is not PeripheralCode* -- it's the Oath! Just read it.
And because it's the Oath, rather than Peripheral Code, it's not Tribunal specific.
It applies to every single magus of the Order.
And not just because of some ruling -- but because that's what every magus swears this.

Ah, that's not how I read what you wrote originally. We agree then.

(Incidentally, there are a bunch of rulings made by the Grand Tribunal that are not Tribunal specific. But I really don't want to get into that).

technically yes, I realised that just after I posted, but decided I couldn't be bothered with them for the moment.

[noliar]

@Fruny

My bloodthirsty sodales,

Killing Euthanata would rob the Order of one of its more knowledgeable members. So knowledgeable is she that my esteemed sodales pussyfoot and hedge their votes, shunning direct confrontation by fear of the power that comes with such knowledge of the Art. This knowledge must not be destroyed in a hotheaded fit of unreasoning anger ! Any decision we take must be for the betterment of our Order and a proof of our greater wisdom.

Unchristian as it may be, our Code leaves us the indisputable right to dispose of our apprentice in the manner we desire, including their destruction should we judge it necessary. Bonisagus himself could have slain Jovius rather than complete his apprenticeship, and no-one but God could have faulted him for it. Although some among us seem to be regretting it, we also did swear to Bonisagus freedom to take our apprentices for his benefit. We must live by our word. However, it is just to demand that Euthanata also live by hers and prove herself worthy of the deference we offered Bonisagus.

I move that Euthanata be compelled to prove to this Tribunal that she can gift our Order with knowledge of the Art commensurate with the Gifts she has consumed, thus fulfilling Bonisagus's promise to us.
I move that she not be allowed to take another apprentice nor leave the boundaries of this Tribunal until that time, on pain of being cast out of our Order.
I move that Bonisagi magi be henceforth required to formally present an accounting of their work by the time the apprentices they have been gifted with would be due to undertake their Gauntlet, regardless of the disposition of said apprentice.

Finally, I move that Tyrone be fined for his refusal to cede his apprentice to Euthanata's rightful request and be compelled to pay House Mercere to carry news of the full facts of this case and both his and Euthanata's conduct throughout the Order.

I am sorry my esteemed colleague, but did you just use the word bloothirsty? Did you, without irony, use the word bloodthirsty to describe those of us who find intolerable this person who literally subsides upon the hearts of children? You speak of respect for Bonisagus. I too respect Bonisagus though I must confess myself unfamiliar with parts of his history - I cannot place those moments where he rendered down the founders of this order for vis! I am amazed that anyone can think it honours the first and greatest teacher in this order to countenance these abhorrent acts.

Let me be clear here. The question has been asked and the decision will be recorded, if we do not condemn then de facto we countenance but either way it will be explicit what is expected when the oath is sworn. If this tribunal finds against Tyrone then when our apprentices come to take their oaths, if they are allowed to live that long, they will knowingly be swearing that any apprentice they may take on in turn is being fattened up to be meekly fed to the appetite of such monsters as this. And if these apprentices can swear thus and mean it and keep then we must destroy them for they will be monsters too.

[Kid_Gloves]

This is really not an issue for Tribunal.

Tyrone is guilty of not handing over an apprentice, and in order to avoid setting a dangerous precedent I motion to declare guilt and make the punishment the immediate surrender of the apprentice. If Tyrone wishes to bring up a charge against Euthanata of endangering the Order or similar, that's a separate case.

Euthanata is very clearly antagonising her sodales, even if doing it within the bounds of the Code. She's already done this enough to likely have consequences to deal with.

Finally, the legitimate challenge to her claim by another Bonisagus magus is entirely reasonable, as is that Bonisagus being championed in Certamen by, say, the Tremere Exarch. This is likely the best immediate solution for Horatia's safety, as it sets no unusual precedents and doesn't violate the Code.

Based on the general sentiment of the Tribunal at large, I doubt we will be seeing Euthanta's case in Tribunal again. If she's confidant that she can stand against what looks like about a score of angered and likely powerful magi, then ... good for her. Personally I wouldn't wager this unmagical wooden button for her chances.

[Berengar]

@ezzelino

@One Shot

You did notice that the apprentices used as Vis sources were trained by other magi before, did you?

I did notice it, but I fail to notice what it has to do with the issue at hand.

So by your opinion it is no crime, to consciously, with considerable energy and in several Tribunals work at bereaving the Order of five good magi already mainly trained by excellent Corpus specialists, and in addition of Horatia here present, while - as shown - providing the Order a magus trained by yourself over the customary 15 years, but with three Deficiencies, "threatens the healthy longevity of the Order" and because of this is a very serious low crime, punishable by surrendering the apprentice and banishment?

By my opinion, however, consciously, repeatedly and without remorse or regret abusing the rights accorded to one's House to prey on the apprentices of other magi is a far more heinous crime against the future of the Order, and would deserve even greater punishment.

I rest my case then, and let the sodales decide.

[cj.23]

Right I promised to wrap up each case after a week with some explanatory notes as to what was going on. This one was exactly as it appeared - Euthanata had suffered a Twilight Episode, and now astonishingly mad, was rendering down apprentices for vis for her own twisted Longevity Ritual. I agree with the vast majority of posters - while she may not technically be committing a Hermetic Crime, such cannibalism of the efforts of other magi to train Gifted new magi is pretty horrible, and a Wizard's War is an obvious response.

What I learned from this case was that my groups belief that the bodies of magi contain vis is apparently mistaken at least in 5th edition -- I checked TMRE and ROP: Magic and could not see any reference to it, so unless someone finds it i was wrong there, but the mad maga had obviously made a twisted breakthrough. I think this may be my favorite case of the ones I have done so far, and I'm quite pleased with it. I hope someone will be moved to use Euthanata as an NPC in their saga I think in years to come she may have faeries develop and play her role, pretending to be the apprentice-eating monster of old, as annoyed parens whisper to their young apprentices that fi they keep blotting their grimoires Euthanata will come and gobble them up!

---CASE CLOSED -- but comments are of course very welcome! --- RULING: NOT GUILTY, BUT MANY WIZARD'S WARS DECLARED AGAINST HER