Certamen/Penetration-Rule missing?

:slight_smile:
Again, you are using the 'IN GAME" angle....

I am not speaking about the ramification on the game itself and what the various people would do; different discussion Im thinking... :wink:

Anyway..the mechanic? Simple: use the AC multiplier as a bonus to (Something).
This would mean that you would get (say) a bonus of {maybe} +4 to (something). While its not huge, it would be that 'little extra' reward for having an ARCANE CONNECTION to the person you are Dueling.
As what this could (something) could be:(again)

  1. Bonus to the Penetration score - though this seems a little weak
  2. Bonus to Attack OR Defense...switchable
  3. Bonus to Attack and Defense

The bonus is certainly not as powerful as MMF...

I wouldn't bother with ANY virtue that I would only use ONCE; And no, I would disagree that you could say that about any virtue....Greater Talisman you can use once(unless you make another Talisman), BUT the effects can be used forever... In this case, you might never Certamen the person again.

So what you are saying is that AC's are only usable by Penetration specialist? :confused:

For you maybe, but whatever the implications are for the saga I'm playing in are an important factor in what I would do. Hence, why I'd either do nothing, or introduce it as something that only a few characters can do...which is why a Mystery Cult or a Virtue introduced via research or something similar makes sense, to me. If it doesn't makes sense to you, that's fine.

To me, this is the one that makes the most sense. Arcane Connections help with Penetration, so if you want to have Arcane Connections have some kind of effect on certamen it makes sense for it to be at the time that Penetration is used.

I suppose you could argue that Arcane Connections are also used for targetting spells on remote targets. However, in certamen, the target isn't remote, so I don't think it makes sense to help with attacking or defending.

Isn't that just a sematic difference over whether using the effects of a Virtue counts as using the Virtue or not? Anyway, I don't think we disagree, except possibly over wording.

Sure, but you are likely to engage someone in certamen again?

In case it wasn't clear, I was proposing a Virtue to use Arcane Connections in certamen, via whatever mechanic you like. The idea would be that this would work for any certamen opponent that the magus has an Arcane Connection for. The magus wouldn't need to acquire the Virtue again everytime he obtained a new Arcane Connection.

No, but you would have to find an AC to your next victim..er opponent. That could take several seasons...So just about as difficult as getting the Virtue IMO

As for when to use it, it seems to me that AC's are used to get your magic through...so Attacking score (ie:Casting score+Pen) might be a good place to put it. {This I guess is a basic problem I have with Certamen. Penetration is added like Weapon damage, instead of adding to the Attack score, like in normal spell combat}. The AC being put in with Attack score would seem like the most logical place for it to go...
:slight_smile:

Certamen as an Arcane Ability just doesn't work though.

It means that during character creation, you need, to be a member of the house who is not a complete walkover, to put a fair chunk of points in Certamen. Just for basic realism, if the House likes Certamen, you need to spend points in Certamen.

The downside of this is that what you spend your points on should be what you as a player is interested in: it's your vote on the plot. That means if you put points in Certamen wither it has to become a regular plot feature, on a level of usefulness equal to any other score ofthe same level, or it's just an XP sink that penalises you for playing a Tremere, like in the last edition.

I agree.

David would have to talk to that, but when writing HoH:TL, basically all I did was said "Objectively, in the game world, Tremere are never the best at anything...what does this make them do?" It wasn't a policy question for me so much as a "How do I reflect this in the setting? thing and my response is they -share- and -support- more than individually stronger people do, and this makes them Damn Scary.

I deliberately didn't make them abilities, because:

  • if you pay for an ability your SG has an obligation to make that a meaningful purchase, IMO.
  • if there really were "Tremere secret abilities" then the rest of the Order would be absolute idiots to allow certamen to continue to be used as a basis of improv dispute resolution.

Certamen only works as a piece of setting if certamen works for non-Tremeres.

Each time anyone is tempted to make Certamen more powerful, what they are really doing is making it more powerful for a very brief time, followed by it becoming utterly useless. Actually, that's not 100% true: you could make it more powerful provided the powefulness was not related to the legal system's use of it in magical dueling. In the main, though, more powerful certamen is -less- powerful certamen. THere is a line here for Tremere players to consider.

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Could they perhaps 'give up' their certamen focus to pick up another one in something else through a mystery?

Could they perhaps 'give up' their certamen focus to pick up another one in something else through a mystery?
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Sure, it works for me...IMC, I'd just let the player pick something else if they wanted.

Yeah, I don't see any reason why they "have" to have that focus. Its just what nearly all Tremere have. If he wanted to sacrifice political standing in the house (ie ability with certamen) to have something else, I don't see how that is a game breaking issue. Doesn't the Line of Muj essentially do this anyway? I may be confusing editions, but don't they often have Mythic Blood? And some of them are House Tremere.

Actually, I wasn't refering to your work. I was reflecting on a comment I made on the Berklist right when 5th came out (and, as i recall, you disagreed with me then). In fact, you undid what was one. RAW Tremere are weaker than their forebearers. True Lineages Tremere have their power returned to them in the form of a well defined organized House structure that supports its juniors rather than exploiting them.

But i still think they are artificially weaker because of the focus issue. Hand waving and House rules are fine. But according to RAW, the best necromancers are from any house other than Tremere.

I wouldn't mind seeing Arcane Connections being used in Certaman as a breakthrough or even a very good story seed.

For example, howcome Geoff the Tytalus has just smeared Mr Tremere all over the floor in a single blow.