[OOC: Hmm. Clearly the solution is not to use duration (Arcane) Ring! By my reckoning, Patrick's spontaneous ReAq arcane circle total is (Re 14 + Aq 5 + Focus 5 + Sta 2 + Ring/Circle bonus 3 + Aura 4 + W&G 2 + stress die = 35 + die)/2, so he should be able to make level 20 spells (i.e. diameter/concentration), but not level 30. With ceremonial casting he can get (35 + 4 AL + 3 Phil + 3 extra ceremonial bonus from Hermetic geometry + stress die = 45 + stress die), which should be enough for level 25 spells and therefore duration sun (although having to recast when you don't get the die would be a lot more of a nuisance).
Once the spell was in place, you could drain the water and recast the ward with more conventional rings/circles. This has the disadvantage that it's harder to create circles in mid air when that's the widest point of the corridor, of course. Also, that you potentially have two minutes until you're hit by a wall of water.
Or, you could just be sane and go for the level 5 turn part of the water into ice ReAq solution. But that's far less fun!]
Alcimus looks at Patrick. "Gregorius lairs in there - you should not cut me off from him."
[I thought the botch on the beasts of legends was on the kitchen building?]
"Faeries would be useful, yes. I have no particular reasons to expect attacks specifically against my laboratory, but it could always be caught up in a more general attack. In any case, it's nice to have somewhere to retreat to. Which reminds me..."
He turns to Tasia: "I like the idea of turning the entrance foyer into a studio, but I have a couple of points. Firstly, if we do set up limestone mining operations, that may well be the route which the limestone is coming out by, which won't help with the elegance. Or my labwork, come to that. Secondly, the caves have already been used as a place of retreat once. If we're modifying the cave, I'd like to make its entrance properly defensible."
"We have a blacksmith, but of course not yet a forge. We have some lamps with us already, although probably not enough."
"I'll ask about the trees felling - I reckon we'll need at least some timber even if we do get the quarry working. It's not going to be an immediate solution - I think I've heard wood needs some time to season. I'd have to ask a carpenter how long. Or maybe we could speed it up with a Rego Herbam spell? Actually, given appropriate metal bars I could probably fashion lamps that way as well. I also have a sudden vision of a column of fire shining through a ring of water, and I haven't even been drinking."
[Base 4 ("Treat items made of plant products", pg 51, Covenants) + 1 Touch =5, finesse roll of 3 (work by magic) + 9 (year's work) + Craft ease factor - depending on the craft ease factor, Gregorius could possibly do it, albeit slowly as he wouldn't be able to do a group target save on a very lucky roll.]
"I think the caves are a natural feature which have been expanded in places by men, so...a combination? I don't know what the further reaches are like, though. I'm not sure how I'd create a sphere of air that wouldn't get crushed by the water - I can see that one could ward oneself against the water, but I think it would follow the contours of one's body. Which would mean that even if you weren't drowning, you still couldn't breathe. Turning it into ice should be doable, but would take a while - we don't have many grogs, and we'll need a number of them elsewhere." He turns to Tasia: "Some combination of an Intellego Terram and a Creo Ignem spell to see what is beyond the walls? Or a spell to move one's senses?"
[I'd have thought a personal ward against water should probably get the focus - but I'm not sure where pink dots come into it?]
OOC:
...except that I don't get the Ring/Circle bonus when casting D:Sun (which will be the same lvl as Ring, anyway), unless the room is Geometrically Perfect. What is the W&G bonus? I don't have that on my sheet, and haven't added it in to any of the stuff I've been casting so far.
I also get an extra +3 Ceremonial Figures bonus for using ceremonial magic to interact with regularly formed shapes (Arcane Line, Arcane Ring/Circle, but also regularly formed Rooms). So there might be some advantage to spend an extra die roll to make the rooms regular:
Perfection of the Well-Designed Chamber
Re(Cr)Te(He) 20
R: Touch, D: Momentary, T:Structure
That's for a room in a building, and has target Structure so that the room stays attached to the entire building (which is a bit funny to me, since it's ALSO Re(Cr)Te(He) 20 to geometrically perfect the entire building), but that might not apply when we're talking about caves. It might be Re(Cr)Te(He) 15, instead, but should be within my ceremonial grasp
As I understand it, my numbers are:
Ceremonial Ward Sponts (or Formulae) involving Geometry or Geometrically Regular targets
Re 14 + Aq 5 + Focus 5 + Aura 4 + Sta 2 + Circular/Lines 3 + AL 4 + Philo 3 + Ceremonial Figures 3 + Talisman 4 + W&G(?) 2 + die /2 = 49 + die /2
Ward Sponts or Formulae without a Ring, Circle, Line or Regular target
Re 14 + Aq 5 + Focus 5 + Aura 4 + Sta 2 + W&G(?) 2 + die /2 = 32 + die / 2
What tripped up my math was discovering that a ReAq ward against mundane water starts with Base 5, not Base 1 (and then discovering that the Ward vs mundane human is base 15, making my Imprison The Fleeing Coward R:Touch, D:Arcane Ring, T:Arcane Circle spell a ReCo40, and not a ReCo 10 rote. )
In general, My character combo has turned out to be much less effective than my first-glance assumptions suggested. Because of the 2-step difference between Arcane Ring/Circle wards and normal ones, FFM doesn't apply, and we've ruled that it doesn't work on rotes, either. I still don't know how effective he is in combat. After these last two "days" of casting, I'm starting to realize just how warp-prone Magic Addiction makes you. (Those aren't complaints, mind you, I'm just discussing the new points on my learning curve. Give him another 10 years of study, and we'll see how he does then )
[OOC: Botch was on the Kitchen, addiction failures were on the South Storerom, Main Building, Patrick's Field, Hypocaust Lab, and the tower. ~whistles innocently and checks the library for books on concentration~]
Animal Ken to Alcimus: "Ah, I thought he was moving into the underground sanctum."
Patrick opens his mouth to speak, but gets so caught up in his thoughts that he just listens to this part of the conversation gape-mouthed.
"If I'm already making heat and light for everyone, why not have the blacksmith use one of my rings as a forge while we're at it? Although, really, basic heat and light rings are spells of the first magnitude. Any journeyman should be able to produce one."
[OOC: Oh, gods! The cross-referencing....Rego Craft Ease Factors, Covenants, pg 49. The Mystical Carpenter, ReHe 25, Covenants pg 51 (And also, The Phantom Blacksmith ReTe 20, on the same page). Carpenters can produce 2 townhouses in a season, masons can produce 1/2 a tower in a season (standard quality), City and Guild, pg 67.....so it becomes a trade off between Gregorius's better finesse, and Patrick's ceremonial casting bonuses...]
"Yes, we're quite like The Wizard Who Shaved A Yew. We have the sheep, and want the vellum, but don't want to wait. Would turning a grove of trees into suitable lumber be Perdo or Rego? I have no idea. Perhaps we should begin quarry operations. It'd be the same number of men, I'm guessing, but without the transportation or drying times. I fancy that the lepers would enjoy the work, cured as they are. Though, we probably don't want to start quarrying in the flooded caves. What if we cut into the south side of the plateau and try to meet up with the flooded sections? We'll have building materials, and a much more mundane way to get rid of the water. Or from the north face, and we might even be able to fashion a natural flowing moat.
"It is a shame we don't have a sculptor, or a craftsmen who works in the noble metals. That feels like the sort of panache we're looking for. I propose another compromise, then: I shall use the lamps, these metal rings on torch-sticks, and anything that might suit my Lamps of Significance for now, and later we will find a sculptor to patronize who can fashion statues to hold aloft these lanterns. I quite like the idea of placing one inside a fountain, little brother. Perhaps the main fountain, and someday we can turn it into a scrying pool!
"....Did I hear one of the grogs say you roasted a horse just the other day? May I have its skull for one of my Lamps of Significance?"
[OOC: I don't really understand the issues people have with ward spells. I just try to avoid the argument altogether.]
I don't think that's really a Pink Dot--you're actually trying to keep the water out with a ward against water, not turning it pink and casting a spell to keep pink things out.
Whoa. That was a helluva lot more succinct about it than anyone else has ever been. Usually people tangle it up with the penetration problems, and the holes in the Aegis, and make it much more confusing.
That brings up an interesting point: I said in an earlier post that the caves entrance was in a dedicated building on the east side of the fountain, but I was recently checking Arthur's original notes, and I see now that he intended the caves to be entered from the ruined temple. I actually like it bettter that way (and it fits the covenant's mythic background better, in ways that I can't go into right now), and so I think we'll do that.
[OOC: Page 94 of TM:RE says that "When casting any spell that involves tracing a circle or a line, including standard circle or ring spells...the magus gains a bonus of +3 to his casting score." So you do get the bonus even if you're only using one of target circle or duration ring. W&G is loud words and exaggerated gestures (pg 83 of the main book) (sorry, that wasn't very clear). If you're using a target Arcane Circle as a target, that should be enough to get you the additional +3 ceremonial casting bonus, without altering the shape of the room you're casting it in.
And I missed the talisman (but I don't think this counts as numerology - am I missing something?)]
I'll direct the blacksmith to come and speak with you about it - I'd expect that would work, but there are probably specific temperatures he needs or something.
[OOC: Gregorius isn't going to make any spell above a level 10, maybe 15, spontaneously (or at least, not without good dice rolls - his best TeFo combination is 14 ( + Sta 1 + Aura max 5 + W&G 2, plus possibly ceremonial 2, but it's usually going to be quicker, if riskier and possibly wasteful of raw materials, to keep casting until he gets a good roll). He's about 15 hermetic years younger than all of the other magi.]
"I'd say Rego would work better, although it might be possible to do something with Perdo. I don't think I could manage a spell to turn a tree into planks, though. Moving the quarry elsewhere could work. We really need a map of the cave system. The previous covenant apparently had an enchanted knife to cut stone which is probably still in the flooded sections - if we can find that, we can give it to a grog and quarrying should suddenly get a lot easier."
"We've probably got enough dressed stone to construct one building. Tasia, what do you want to prioritise - the carpenter's shed? At some point, we'll need an infirmary, a barracks, more fortifications, more quarters for the grogs, a smithy, I'd like a dedicated laboratory and sanctum, more quarters for visiting magi, possibly a separate library...I'm sure I could go on."
"Hmm. We really don't have many grogs. The autocrat and a few other grogs have experience building things, so set him, and another three grogs on that. We also have a carpenter, blacksmith, bookbinder, Petrus, the herbalist and Miklos, the grog captain. Theodoric has experience as a grog sergeant. The carpenter could maybe direct tree felling? I don't know if that actually falls under what he can do, but I think he's the closest we've got. Give him a couple of grogs. The blacksmith should be able to work without assistance if you" - looking at Patrick "could get a forge working for him. The bookbinder...I'm not sure what to do with. I don't think putting him on one of the heavy manual labour tasks is going to work well. We don't have any spare magic theory books for him to study, and I'm not sure he even speaks anything other than greek in any case. Keep Miklos and say 5 other grogs on guard duty. That's about the limit of the grogs, and doesn't allow for hunters or the cook, although there's still Theodoric and some people can do multiple jobs. I've left out Leon for you to direct. I think we'll need to look into hiring locals soon. I'd also like to get Theodoric teaching a decent teacher how to speak the local language."
[MTKnife: I've also not allowed for any Teamsters and Servants, because I wasn't sure how many, if any, we have at this point.]
"I'm probably getting a little ahead of myself - we are a newly formed spring covenant. On the other hand, we're a newly formed spring covenant which is potentially going to have a lot of hermetic visitors, and I'd rather we didn't stay a heap of (flooded) rubble in the middle of nowhere longer than we have to. The middle of nowhere may be hard to change, but we should be able to do something about the rest. I've no idea what happened to the skull. You can have it as far as I'm concerned, although it seems an odd thing to make a lamp out of."
I thought we agreed that I couldn't use target circle without duration ring? Can you write up an example spell of what you're suggesting?
I always forget about the words & gestures bonuses/penalties!
In trying to find the line where it explains that Geometry counts as a subset of Numerology for talismans, I noticed something that may need a ruling -- on page 92 of TMRE, it says that magi often attune the Numerology books as a talisman, and that books have new Shape and Material Bonuses. So is the Talisman's Shape & Material Attunement Bonus of "+2 Intellego, +3 Divination, and/or +4 Numerology" a different bonus than the +4/8 book bonus described on page 91?
"Well, why don't we all walk over and ask him now? Everybody seems to feel this is a good moment to discuss options, and I've always made a point of letting the grogs hear my reasoning and giving them a chance to give input, though I don't change my greater plans for them. If they're aware of our concerns and priorities, then they'll be able to make intelligent decisions on their own.
"I've also yet to meet Viola, come to that. Where is our Merinita? Has she made contact with the local fae yet?"
"I vote for trying to tackle this problem from another angle. Let Tasia gain what information she can about the plateau from a number of locations, and then we start quarrying, digging a straight line towards the existing rooms, to create a run-off pipeline."
"Now, now, little brother. As Tytalus says, Step 1: Collect loincloths, Step 3: Profit! Let us not get ahead of ourselves. If we think about organizing Tanais' layout into districts, rather than specific buildings, then we won't need to come up with giant lists of buildings. For example, livestock and animal husbandry go over there, by my sanctum, so that includes barns, flour mills, slaughter houses, tanneries, etc. We don't need to decide exactly where. The craftsmen will know their jobs best."
"Herbalist? I've not met her yet. Books are bound with wood, the binder might want to be involved in the timber industry. Or we can put him in charge of setting up the library?
"From what Tasia tells me, Theodoric knows the land best, and you've probed his mind to ensure he's loyal to us and not The Others. Send him to guard and direct the tree felling. Leon has some experience with wood craft, mostly for making bows and clubs, but it is an idle of hobby of his. I suggest sending him out to hunt, maybe even have him ingratiate us into one of the local hunting tribes. He'll learn the area, bring us game, and possibly even find better quality wood for us to fell. If he works with a hunting tribe, he'll learn the language and maybe make us allies."
"Dream big dreams and work on small details, has always been my motto. If we don't know what direction we wish to go in, how can we get anywhere?
[OOC: I don't think I ever said that - I certainly never meant it, and I don't think there's anything in the rules to suggest it, although ring is by far the most common duration to use with circle. Indeed, the rules specifically say "and ends when the circle is broken, even if that is before the duration of the spell expires", which explicitly implies other durations are allowed, although you get the lesser of the two effects. I did comment a bit that I didn't think there was much point in combining normal circle/arcane ring, or vice versa, although you can still do them, and FFM gives it a bit of use, but that was a different point.
Example spell: Part the Distant Waters: ReAq 20. Base 5 + 1 Arcane Circle + 1 touch + 1 diameter. When casting this spell, the caster must trace a perfect circle. The ward is then created around a magical circle which is created of an identical size centred around any targetted point the magus can see. The ward is broken when either the magical circle is broken, the mundane circle used to cast the spell is, or the diameter duration expires.
(The rules are a little non-specific on exactly where the magus can target the magical circle - specifically, whether they have to be able to see the entire magical circle, or only the point at its centre. I'm inclined to say only the point at the centre, but may change my mind if being able to create almost undetectable circles in solid rock turns out to be horribly broken. It's not as though most people can see the magical circles anyway, though - you need second sight or equivalent. If you can make them in solid rock (with the centre point visible), that would make blocking off the corridors a lot easier, too, although you'd need a big enough space to draw the mundane circle.)]
[OOC: Pg 92, Magical Books grey box: "If investing Numerological effects into a lesser or greater Numerologist;s Book, the magus may benefit from both the Shape and Material Bonus, and from the special Numerologist's book bonus", so apparently yes, and they stack (it seems reasonable to extrapolate to the general case from investing effects).]
"I'm only just back myself. When I left, she was still in a faerie regio, but it's possible she's out now - if so, she'll probably be in her room in the main building."
"You're right, probably best to wait until Tasia's had a look before making too many plans."
"He...what? Nevermind. Dividing the layout into districts is a good idea, though. I'll get a tablet in a minute..."
"The herbalist is Petrus, sorry that wasn't clear. He's not got any formal medicinal training, but he's quite a competent chirurgeon, and knows his way around the plantlife. He'll probably need to spend this season finding out what grows around here. I'm not sure the library will take even a week to set-up. The tribunal's been generous, but..."
"According to Theodoric, the previous covenant had some problems with other villages over hunting rights. It might work, or it might go quite wrong..."
He seems ready to head off to look for the blacksmith - and a tablet.
[OOC: I reckon you can do the ice variant with a momentary duration - it'll melt at the same rate as normal ice would in the prevailing conditions. Technically you can do the steam similarly, but in a cave it might condense a bit fast. Concentration duration also has the advantage that it stays under a magical effect and thus needs to penetrate. I'd also been thinking target part rather than room (although having the part up to the maximum base individual size). A base individual for aquam is 15 feet by six.
Creating a breeze would be Base 1 + 1 concentration + 1 touch +1/2 unnatural = 4/5. Should be doable, but the concentration rolls to keep it going whilst moving the water all the way to where it needs to be would be a problem for Gregorius - I'm not convinced he could walk and concentrate.]
"I couldn't manage to do all of the room at once, although I could do bits of it. Whilst I could cast the wind spell, I don't think I could keep it going until we get the water out of the cave system. I'd be worried about blowing hot steam about, in any case - we'd need to make sure any grogs were well out of the way, and cast forcelessly. I think ice would probably work better, even if it is slower."
I'll try some time in the next week. I have an article to finish and a newborn who has a heart problem (she should be OK in the end), so I could be a bit slow.
Ah, okay. I started trying to explore depth-first with Range, then Duration, got stuck on Arcane Ring being useless, and gave up. Target Arcane Circle makes a lot of sense.
I think you mean sense, not see. I can't think of a way to sense a particular point inside a boulder, though.
~boggles~ Well, between that and Words & Gestures, that ups my casting totals a magnitude for some spells, and gives me the ability to invent Lvl 10 Rego rotes.
Found the quote I was looking for. Pg 91, "If the book is consulted while working in the Laboratory, the book bonus can be added to Lab Totals for Numerology, including Rotes, and to Lab Totals for Hermetic Geometry and Hermetic Architecture." Not sure what Numerology lab work can be done besides Rotes, since counting spells are apparently not Numerology. Divination, maybe? So, I don't think the Talisman bonus applies to Geometry.
"Ah, but then he'll need to construct a proper catalog. There are a number of spells which quite usefully interact with a library's catalog. Oh, that reminds me! Brother, could you sign this for me, please?"
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