Note that 25 x 40 = 1000. And the elders may not have tought about second floors, because none of their houses have them.
More tomorrow, posting from my phone right now.
I took that to mean that they were limiting them to one floor. And even if it never occurred to them that we might add another floor, I'm guessing that they'd consider it to be violating the spirit of the agreement if we turned the houses into towers. And we don't want to get into the kind of a relationship in which we're both trying to work the loopholes of the agreement. We want to come up with an agreement that we both can live with, even if it's not our first choice of how things should work.
As for the size of the houses, I noted Xavi's math error. But still, three houses at 1000 sq feet each is still only 3000 sq ft. Four average labs would take up 2/3 of that, leaving far, far too little for four magi and associated covenfolk.
11:30 PM flat brainwaves strike again. DOH! 
That still limits what we can do a lot. Only 3 houses is acceptable. We were not planning more than that anyway. However, we were planning on building inside the plateau stone as well, and the limit on excavation puts a hold on that. The "no summoned materials" implicit clause that is being implemented basically screws the covenant forever since this is one of our strong points. More than for construction methods, it raises a point about income methods. No raising animals likewise since we need to get subsistence for ourselves and they are basically screwing our local economics forever. We can still rely on trade, true but we were not planning on trade to be our sustenance method. Not acceptable. Maybe the village will have to move. Or the elders to suffer from old age.
Dietlinde stays out next time since her report might make it clear that she is taking pleasure not getting e results we expect from her. Alice might need to grow a spine faster than we thought. Wasn't the captain of the ship a good bargainer?
General comment. This is the initial proposal from the village. There is obviously some negociation room built into it.
I should have been clearer on that clause. The elder did not specify the size of the house, that was more for your info. As I mentioned, they have not thought about additional floors. So there might be some negociation room there, if you ask. On the other hand, as you rightly mention, towers miuught be pushing it. Plus, anything ressembling towers might draw the attention of the Danish lord...
Are you planning on having all of the covenfolk live at the covenant itself? Remember that some of your workers will come from the village.
Your definition of "excavation" might vary from theirs... Have you asked about "cellars" underneath the house? Remember, the magi were the ones talking about excavations. Here's the quote:
Note that all those clauses are about the kind of activities that you can engage on the plateau itself... There is nothing preventing the covenant from having its money-generating activities down below.
See it from their perspective. Anything you do to raise food on the plateau will take up land and use up scarce resources. They are simply making sure that you don't infringe on their ability to feed themselves.
Also, the magi positioned themselves as scholars. Why would scholars wish to grow food and raise livestock?
The power level of the individual magus is a bit lower than what you would see in the average saga, because there is less sharing of books and ressources. Established covenants guard their privileges tightly, using them to lure younger magi to join. These covenants have been established in locations that allow them to avoid the influence of the Church and other mundanes. High-ranking nobles and Church officials are aware of the existence of the Order, but that information is not widely available. The mundane-oriented magi (Jerbiton and others) act subtly in their dealings with mundanes.
Furthermore, the Code regarding interference with mundanes is enforced strictly. There has been cases in the past where whole covenants were destroyed by mundane armies, despite strong defenses. Many magi suspect this was because of Divine influence. Whatever the cause, some covenants have simply moved rather than be threatened by expanding mundane influence. Other factors, like vis sources drying up due to that expension, made those decisions easier. Individual magi have also been killed by mobs, despite having possessed sufficient magic to protect themselves. Others were able to get away. Those few who used blatant magic to do so were prosecuted under the Code and executed (Marched).
So those covenants that are left are often located in remote areas (deep forest, mountaintops) or well-hidden (including in regiones). They are larger, by and by, than what is usually the case in other sagas.
High-ranking nobles and Church officials are aware of the existence of powerful wizards and their covenants (though not the exact locations), and at times have some dealings with individuals. The prevalent relationship of these mundanes is that if magi do not serve them, then magi are a potential threat to their hold on power. But so long as they are not in sight, most mundanes do not bother to pursue them.
After reporting this initial proposal to the magi, Dietlinde indicates that she feels that there is some room for negociations. She asks the magi what part of this they need to move, which parts they would like to change but can do without, and what they don't really care about.
She then goes back the another meeting with Louke, the make a counter-proposal. The negociations last for four days, after which she feels no more headway can be made. Although Alice was able to help, she admits to Quercus that there was only able to contribute a little to the negociations. Fresse prove to be more of a liability than help, so after the first day he decides to simply shut up (and tries hard not to yawn at the long proceedings).
(OOC: I'd like you all to classify stuff along the 3 categories: must-have, like-to-have, irrelevant-to-the-magi. After I have those priorities, I will relate what Dietlinde was able to get.)
Cellars would be must-have. Once we have that, we don't have to let them check how deep we've gone unless we need to let the grogs in there. Prochorus feels the rest is less important, but none of the mentioned bits should be worsened to a great extent.
I agree with Wits. The not allowed to excavate is the main point for Japik. It needs to be opened up to allow for some leeway.
Here are Pytheas's thoughts:
You will only build 3 houses, no larger than the largest one from the village (which is about 25 by 40 feet with a single floor). Their exact location will have to be mutually agreed to.
I would like-to have more than three buildings. Perhaps aim for six and settle for four. Regardless, this seems very small for a covenant. Given the need for four sanctums and four labs, exactly how much space will be left for covenfolk? How many covenfolk are we expecting to have. It looks to me like we'll have a hard limit on that number based on the number and size of the buildings we have.
Any building materials from the plateau (stone, for the most part) shall be provided by the village, based on their capacity to do so.
Largely irrelevant. If we can't magic up the buildings (which would be a bit too obvioius), then we might as well make the locals happy with respect to where we get the materials.
Any building materials brought from down below (wood and metals, for the most part) shall have one part in ten paid to the village.
Also largely irrelevant. It'll make building slightly more expensive. But we're not building all that much, so it shouldn't be a big deal.
For each worker you hire from down below to work on the plateau, you will hire a worker from the village. That is true both during the construction and afterwards. Workers from the village will be paid wages equal to those from down below.
Also irrelevant. Whatever makes people happy.
You will not farm the land, beyond a small garden.
So long as the definition of "small" is okay, I have no problem with this. I would interpret "small" as "appropriate to the number of people in the covenant." In other words, it should feed the covenant, without being a commercial entrerprise. If we're on the same page with that, then I have no trouble with it.
You will not raise animals.
I would like-to-have an exeption to this similar to that made for the "small" garden. I'd like us to be able to keep an animal for milk, maybe a few pigs, some chickens. Nothing too much, but a small amount for personal use.
You will not excavate the land.
I'm with the others on this. The ability to excavate "cellars" is a must-have. We need to have somewhere to put our labs. That is non-negotiable.
You will build an enclosure around the tree, to prevent the village’s sheep and goats from reaching it.
I have no trouble with this requirement either.
Just to make sure that I have things straight, though. As I understand things, this land is actaully owned by the lord of this area (whoever that is). The lord has given us permission to build the covenant on these lands, and technically we're only negotiating with Ober to to play nice with our neighbors. Is that right?
Yes. But it's kind of a de jure/facto distinction.
[*]You will only build 3 houses, no larger than the largest one from the village (which is about 25 by 40 feet with a single floor). Their exact location will have to be mutually agreed to.
As said, some more would be appreciated. 5, would be a nice number. Will start at 6 an settle for 4.
[*]Any building materials from the plateau (stone, for the most part) shall be provided by the village, based on their capacity to do so.
Acceptable.
[*]Any building materials brought from down below (wood and metals, for the most part) shall have one part in ten paid to the village.
Can only apply to original construction. Reforms in the future should not be subject to this. It will increase our costs A LOT and we are affluent, but our resources are far from limitless for now. Will prefer if they specify what they want and we can negotiate to build it for them instead (or contribution to it) once they clarify.
[*]For each worker you hire from down below to work on the plateau, you will hire a worker from the village. That is true both during the construction and afterwards. Workers from the village will be paid wages equal to those from down below.
This is basically allowing a sindicate in our covenant. OK, since it does not specify that the ubberland people need to work in the plateau, so we can recruit them as sailors if needed be.
[*]You will not farm the land, beyond a small garden. You will not raise animals. You will not excavate the land.
Agreed on the vegetable pen. Can negotiate to allow a smaller pen for our stuff that would not support our own needs. A health herb garden would be good to have, though, so some kind of minor farming should be allowed.
Allowing cellars is a must. There should be no restriction AT ALL placed on the cellars.
[*]You will build an enclosure around the tree, to prevent the village’s sheep and goats from reaching it.[/list]
No problem.
I would prefer some kind of stockade to protect us. An open door in the stockade can allow them free pass, while there is no danger for us. Nothing to stop a siege, but a stockade strong enough to protect us from random raids. Not mandatory right now, though
As far as the magi know, the Danish lord has control over the island. Exactly what that entails is a bit vague to them. Dietlinde, through intermediaries, obtained a document securing permission to settle. Here’s what I posted at the time:
So the text of the document grants you “permission”. Not quite as strong as the “right” to do so. It doesn’t grant you any specific lands of your own, nor does it mention anything about what rights the village may have. Any dispute would usually be brought before the lord’s court. The village probably may not want that either. Do you?
Regarding the number of houses. You are allowed six hearth by your document. Dietlinde plans on using this number in her negotiations, she says, but she also notes that a hearth is not the same as a chimney since each floor would need its own hearth. A large house, segmented into closed rooms, might require more than one hearth per floor. There is magic, of course, but if taxation is by the number of hearth you can probably expect inspection at some point. Based on the number of hearths, she thinks she can get the village to accept two 2-story large houses (2 hearths each) and 2 smaller single-story houses (1 hearth each). She thinks that having cellars on the large houses might be possible. How large are the masters are thinking in term of cellars? She thinks that their restrictions on excavations were more meant to prevent you from digging willy-nilly around the plateau.
Regarding the garden, she notes that a garden is not the same as having fields, in that it is never enough to feed the people that tend it. It is more of a way to vary the diet, have some herbs, etc. She points out that the gardens in the village are all smaller than the houses themselves. So the masters should expect to purchase most of the food anyway. She thinks she might be able to negotiate for the addition of a dozen chicken.
Regarding the enclosure, Dietlinde doesn’t think having it surround the buildings as well as the oak will be a problem, so long as it doesn’t surround more land than the houses and the garden. She looks at Quercus strangely when he mentions a stockade. What for? The plateau itself was quite inaccessible, so who would raid there? And aren’t you supposed to be a scholarly community? Mundane lords might look more closely at you if you start building fortifications.
I doubt that very much. I just wanted to make sure that while we weren't on totally stable ground, neither was the village. We're both negotiating from a position where we have strengths and weaknesses. It's not all in their favor.
That seems a reasonable settlement.
Well, we have to have room for four labs in this settlement - and that's in addition to living quarters for four magi and however many covenfolk we end up with. (How many do we expect that to be?) It seems to me that two two-story houses and two one-story houses will pretty quickly fill up with covenfolk, leaving the labs to be underground. So figure the excavations will be enough to cover four labs plus some moderate root cellars and the like.
All I meant by raising the question of the size of the gardens is that they should be of a size as you'd expect from a garden for similar buildings in the village. And any chance of keeping a couple of pigs and a cow/goat? Or can we expect to be able to buy milk and pork?
I agree that a stockade is more than we should ask for at this point. Consider as well, would we have enough grogs to man a stockade? I doubt it. Better to make sure that the houses are well fortified and leave it at that for the moment. As Dietlinde notes, we are on a fairly defensible plateau.
In any case, those are Pytheas's thoughts.
Nope, it is not. And the elders know it (or some of them, at least). Both sides are on shaky grounds, which is why there are negociations going on. 
As I noted previously, the large houses would have a footprint of 1000 sq.feet per floor. So each floor has enough room for 2 standard lab. Leaving 2000 sq.feet, plus the two smaller houses (say another 1000 sq.feet) for living quarters, kitchen, etc.
Consider that in the village, a single-floor large house probably caters to a family of 8 to 12, perhaps even more, spread along 4 generations.
No chance at all of the village accepting that you would have any cattle, Dietlinde tells you. From the village's standpoint, any fodder that they lose mean the village's sheep and goat will starve come winter. And if their animals starve, so do they. Even the chicken, from their standpoint, will be a major concession.
Perhaps we put two magi in each large house, labs upstairs, living quarters downstairs, with the library in one building and the meeting room in the other. The covenfolk can then have the other two buildings.
True. But they don't have to deal with the Gift. That will require a little more space for the magi, hence my suggestion to leave the magi to the two big houses and the covenfolk in separate houses.
Hmm, maybe that can be the request that we give up on to get our basement excavations allowed. 
How large does a meeting room need to be for 4 magi? How large does a library need to be? Right now you are talking about 1,000 sq.feet for each.
BTW, Dietlinde asked about the size of the cellars. Wouldn't want to commit to something much smaller than what they have in mind...
As I understand it, we have 1000 sq ft on each of two levels to work with for each two-story house. I was figuring something like this:
First House:
- Upstairs: 500 sq ft for first magus' lab
- Upstairs: 500 sq ft for second magus' lab
- Downstairs: 200 sq ft for first magus' sanctum (i.e., personal rooms)
- Downstairs: 200 sq ft for second magus' sanctum (i.e., personal rooms)
- Downstairs: 100 sq ft for meeting room
- Downstairs: 500 sq ft for general living area
Second House:
- Upstairs: 500 sq ft for third magus' lab
- Upstairs: 500 sq ft for fourth magus' lab
- Downstairs: 200 sq ft for third magus' sanctum (i.e., personal rooms)
- Downstairs: 200 sq ft for fourth magus' sanctum (i.e., personal rooms)
- Downstairs: 100 sq ft for library
- Downstairs: 500 sq ft for general living area
That makes a 10x20 area for each magus to have as a sanctum - say, a bedroom and a study, a 10x10 room for the meeting room, and a 10x10 room for the library. Seems reasonable to me. The meeting room and the library would be only a small part of the first floor of the two houses.
I think this list of buildings and rooms looks very good to begin with.
At the start of the story we discussed a way to link the top of the cliff with the beach (or rocks perhaps) down below by excavating the cliff, gently of course. I still think we should do this even if we won't be allowed to do so in our contract with the village elders. Cellars beneath the two main buildings are a must to be allowed though. The rest of the excavation needs to be kept a secret to the village and basically anyone but us magi and the closest grogs. I believe this could also be an alternative to place our labs in the future. Japik have an idea to make his laboratory and sanctum connected to the sea somehow. I think Pytheas had similar ideas but I'm not sure how relevant that is now.
Japik has no opinion about the garden and animal keeping points. In his mind the food will be no problem when cliff and sea is connected... On the other hand he is not known for focusing on problems.
A stockade seems a bit overkill and as have been said may draw unwanted attention towards us.
If we can have one or 2 of the houses quite near the border of the cliff, we can have the cellars have windows, so they can be used as airy places. The holes can be made to look natural, of course, but instead of a dark place we have a good place to have a quiet lab. Or a secluded space for the magi to hold council and study in a place that is as far away from human yes as we can manage.
Not something we have to negotiate with the village, but something that would be interesting to consider when placing the actual houses.
After another round of negotiations, Dietlinde reports that the requirements would be amended as follow:
- You will only build 4 houses, 2 of them no larger than the largest one from the village (which is about 25 by 40 feet with a single floor) and 2 of them smaller (the example given was about 20 by 25 feet). Their exact location will have to be mutually agreed to. The large houses can have a second floor and small cellars under them.
- Any building materials from the plateau (stone, for the most part) shall be provided by the village, based on their capacity to do so.
- Any building materials brought from down below (wood and metals, for the most part) shall have one part in ten paid to the village, either in kind or in coin.
- For each worker you hire from down below to work on the plateau, you will hire a worker from the village to also work on the plateau. That is true both during the construction and afterwards. Workers from the village will be paid wages equal to those from down below.
- You will not farm the land, beyond a small garden equivalent to those that can be seen in the village. You will not raise animals, beyond a dozen chicken. You will not excavate the land, beyond the small cellars within the houses.
- You will build an enclosure around the tree, to prevent the village’s sheep and goats from reaching it. That enclosure can surround the houses and garden, but no land beyond that.
Dietlinde notes that the spinning woman, whose name is Imma, was sometimes present during the negociations, although she did not speak and kept spinning throughout. But often, the wording of one clause or another was slightly changed on the next meeting whenever she was present.