yes, Fray means Theodoric.
Theodoric was (and is now) a grog sergeant--so it wouldn't be especially surprising if he didn't know certain things.
Scott
Gregorius will grimace a little, but sweep up the pollen to take with him.
"Whilst it's possible the previous covenant didn't know about the regio, it seems unlikely - and someone else certainly knows about it, given that fire. I would be surprised if the previous covenant didn't have anyone with Second Sight, although if they were just relying on casting spells they might not have checked in the right place."
"Theodoric was a grog sergeant rather than the autocrat - I'm still slightly surprised he didn't know, but it's possible, and I think he would have mentioned if it he'd known."
He'll cast his Rego Corpus spell to get back across the water (roll is 9 invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4498428/ , so succeeds), then cancel it with a fatigueless PeVi again once he's back on the other side.
He'll create a sturdy vine, carefully structured to be easy to climb for him and Aison to use to get back up.
[CrHe Base 1 + 1 Touch + 2 Sun + 1 size = 5. Casting total (Cr 0 + He 0 + Aura 7 + Sta 1 + die 7)/2 = 7.5 (invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4498440/) for the structuring of the vine.
I've also realised that most of the past spells with Alcimus probably won't have worked, as he has a Magic Resistance in the current aura of 17 which I'm not sure he can surpress at will. If he can surpress it, Gregorius will suggest (to Alcimus' deep disgust) that Fray temporarily shrink him so he can be carried up with them. If he can't, we may need to retcon things (possibly including how him getting down from the ledge in the first place).]
Under the charter, Gregorius and Fray can keep that vis, so don't forget to divide and record it.
Did anyone ever come up with a canonical answer to the question of suppressing MR?
Scott
Revised: CrHe - stair/ramp
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Base 2 to create a plank. It does not need to be treated, as it won't last long.
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R: Touch, D: Dia +1, T:Ind
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Size increase +2, from normal materials of a plant 1x1x1 pace (which isn't much when you think about it) up to 100 times that.
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added +1 for feedback, but I cannot find exactly what was missing. Complexity?
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So final effect is CrHe 10.
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CT is 22+roll (Cr 3 He 7, Aura 7, Int 3, W&G 2).
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Roll: 1d10=7, which passes, costing a fatigue. CT 14 vs level 10. Weird roll is ok too 1d10=8
how do you want to split it Salutor?
It's tricky, cannon is not clear. I dug through RoP:M to see if it mentioned it, and found nothing. Forums tell us Can a being of Might voluntarily lower its magic resistance?, but that is dealing with fae rather than a sentient magical beast. Summary of that thread is that some folks think the cannon implies they cannot, others opt to say that fae could so that they could benefit from the magic and spells of their fellow fae.
IMHO it makes sense to me that a creature could choose to be affected, so that it can be assisted by it's fellow creatures; but that choice would be rare when dealing with humans and Magi. I suggest that Alcimus probably does not trust Fray well enough to even allow it if he could, although given the circumstances perhaps he would have (your call Salutor). I'm certain that Fray would not seek to anger either Alcimus or Gregorius by trying to penetrate through Alcimus's MR.
We retcon the story so that Alcimus stayed at the cavern entrance?
cheers IBT
The base was too low--"treated or processed" here doesn't mean chemically treated. It includes things like nailing pieces of wood together. As Salutor pointed you, you probably also need a Finesse roll.
Scott
If Alcimus isn't actually there because he couldn't be affected due to MR, then the ladder should be pretty easy to create.
CrHe15 + a Finesse roll seems too high. More like CrHe10 with a roll required, or CrHe15.
I want to wait for Salutor's input, but I'm inclined to say that a sentient creature can voluntarily suppress MR.
As for the Finesse roll, it shouldn't be a very difficult one, so let's say 6--Salutor though said it should be a 9--where's that from?
Scott
Rego Craft Magic is from Covenants, p49 & 50 talks in detail about the difficulty required for Finesse rolls when crafting. Creo Herbam does not.
That said, this is for craft magic not Creo magic. Creo uses the realm of forms (was that Plato and his cave?) so applying work/craft magic to this is probably not right. The Rego magic for crafting is predicated on the ideal that the magi is using Rego magic to assemble the thing, not conjuring it out the ether.
What a craftsman can build in a day is +0 complexity, Crafting with magic is always +3 higher than the actual target number for the craftsman, a trivial task is 0, a simple one is 3. I'd argue that building a ladder or ramp is fairly simple.
Getting back to what Fray is actually attempting, which is to use Creo to create a ramp/ladder/stair which has core rule examples which do not require Finesse and are very similar. Both the spells in the Creo area do not require Finesse rolls.
- e.g. Bridge of Wood (CrHe20), ArM, p135 (R Touch +1, D:Sun +2, T:Ind, size +2, base 3) which create a 20 pace long, 5 pace wide Bridge.
- Fray is after a far smaller and less complex structure. I'm starting to think that even adding +1 for size is superflous to need, but it can easily stay.
- the wood does not need to be treated, finished, etc. Just stay together for 2 minutes. Think of it as one large block of wood instead of a set of planks.
- A small ramp based upon the same effect is = Creo Herbam level 10 (Base 3, R:Touch +1, D: Dia +1, T:Ind, +1 size)
Am I missing something because the complexity here isn't obvious to me.
[OOC: Crafted items being Creo'ed needing finesse rolls is in the Creo description on page 77 of the main rulebook. It doesn't specify the level there, although page 60 of HoH:S says that it's the same level as it would be for Rego Craft magic. I'd thought it was always 9, for some reason - I'm happy that it probably only counts as a day's work, so 6 is probably reasonable after all, at least for a ramp - a ladder might be slightly trickier.
I'd be inclined towards creatures with Might not being able to surpress their magic resistance at will - there's nothing saying they can, whereas it's a explicit benefit of the Parma. Usually magi can affect their familiars without having to overcome MR, but Alcimus isn't a familiar yet.
On the vis, I was going to say half and half, but of course its an odd number of pawns, so may be worth seeing if we find any more before worrying about what to do about that last pawn.]
Once they're back at the top of the cliff, he'll edge carefully round the ledge to the right.
OOC: And yet Bridge of Wood has no finesse roll. Perhaps the reason is that they seem to be based from "natural" plants - in which case Fray base the effect on that, and void the Finesse roll. Basically the same style effect as Bridge of Wood or Wall of Living Wood.
Finesse roll: 1d10+4=12
That same section for Creo also states that unless the finesse roll is a botch the thing created is fit-for-purpose, but the finesse dictates how fine or attractive it is. I've also just skimmed almost every Creo spell in the core rules and none use a finesse roll in their text.
Further I find it hard to accept a spell like Incantation of Lightning not creating a bolt that was fit-for-purpose on a failed finesse check. Targeting is a separate roll which makes absolute sense. So I disagree with the rule, and it's not used in the core product that I could find, but can't debate that it is present in RAW (which is why I've added this roll).
Fray will follow on after he has briefly rested to recover the fatigue.
[It's the difference between whether something can be drawn directly from the realm of forms or not - a lightning bolt's an entirely natural object, even if it is in an odd place, so doesn't need a finesse roll, whereas a sword or chain mail armour, for example, require finesse rolls. I think the reason there aren't examples in the core book are that there aren't many spells which create crafted objects - Bridge of Living Wood is definitely made out of plants rather than crafted in a conventional way. Conjuring the Mystic Tower probably should have one, mind.]
I can appreciate that approach, but have not seen it in RAW.
Apparently I'm not getting notifications, again. Given what you read, iron, make a Finesse roll, and unless it's a botch, the stairs are fit for use--no one cares how pretty they are.
What's your opinion on the MR issue?
Scott
I'm not sure if the issue is that you can't see the Rules that say that, or you can't see examples - I think the latter?
The latter is confused by the fact that the only Creo spell I think should require a finesse roll in the main book is Conjuring the Mystic Tower, which doesn't (but I have seen other people question why it doesn't before now - the response tends to be some combination of "legacy spell"/"replaced by complexity magnitudes"/"experimentation"). For examples of spells which do have the finesse roll in their write-up, see Sword from the Unseen Scabbard and Silvery Scales of the Knight on page 37 of HoH:S.
yup cool, I've made the Finesse roll and it passed, t'was a post a bit further up.
That is trickier. For the history of the stories already told lets just handwave what happened (spells on the cats from the barrows thread, even stuff up to now, etc).
- A non-sentient creature should not be able to alter it's MR.
- I'm in favour of Fae being able to raise or lower their MR, as I think that needs to happen so that they can effect each other, which I think is appropriate to the setting. Same goes for infernal creatures; they're generally not going to but I can't see how their society works if they can't.
- A sentient creature such as a Dragon or Salutor's companion might be able to do this, but I also acknowledge the general flavor of the game which states tat Parma Magica is so powerful because it offers this choice (good point Salutor).
- If added the power needs some limitations, otherwise it is probably too handy.
- All that said, I'm not at all fussed if the choice is made to say creatures cannot alter their MR. I don't think it will alter the game to keep MR static.
- Option: the virtue at creature creation which allows for sentience (cannot recall what it is called atm) also allows for flexible use of it's MR. This gives a significant boost in flexibility to creatures with Int, but leaves "monsters" with Cunning unaffected.
- Option: add a new minor Quality: Flexible Resistance which can be selected by creatures when generated. Add it to Alcimus as a freebee if Salutor desires Alcimus to have it.
It's certainly inconsistently applied, The Magic Flute, MoH, p 139 - no roll to conjure a flute. Meh. We've a way forward so I think we're good.
So safe to assume that everyone is back at the top of the ledge, one way or another?
Gregorius will start moving carefully along a ledge to the next cavern - right by preference (but if that way isn't an option left's fine).