Okay, everyone here at the covenant. Kesara has just returned from the camp with some grogs and a message concerning ogres migrating into that area and preying upon human settlements.
OOC: Noted regarding the midwives in the immediate area. Again, I concur with Ladyphoenix in general; they could easily be aligned with Faerie or the Divine as well as Magic. Personally, I favour a "strong" Faerie as it has been in all previous editions.
IC: In the midst of one of his more political discussions with Tresmillia, Vares clarifies, "I won't argue that those with the Gift have a potential that the Order wants in its members. The Founders were all Gifted from disparate traditions, whatever the common, Classically-influenced roots of many. Incorporating Gifted 'wizards' who have been pursuing their own studies could strengthen our Order. My concern is that there is a push by some to force the choice on minor Talents who have only a single or perhaps two or three esoteric abilities with limited scope. To bring them under the Code would diminish the majesty of Magi, and would clutter our Tribunals with those who do not share the scope of our Gift. Nor should we persecute them. The more Magic is removed from the world, the less Magic there is for US to call upon. Let them be the grass and the bushes surrounding the trees of our Power. All make the forest."
Receiving a message from a page that Kesara has returned, Vares proceeds to the hall to meet with her. The Quaesitora will likely invite herself along to hear what is said.
(concerning your political discussion)
[color=green]Tresmilla: [color=red]You are still not understanding my point. It isn't about recruiting those that we think would strengthen the Order, nor even about those whose knowledge we would wish to absorb into our own. Not at all. It is about maintaining the rule of law and a code of conduct upon all weilders of magical power, great and small. It really isn't even about the Order, it is about mundane society. If a Hedge Wizard has a sufficient magnitude of power that he or she could potentially Interfere with Mundanes and therefore bring ruin upon other wizards, then that wizard needs to be forced to submit to the Code of Hermes or face the consequences. In fact, I am shocked to hear a Flambeau magus talk in such a timid and passive fashion. It is normally your sodales that relish in enforcing the policy. But I do not advocate it for the purpose of glory or bloodlust. Nor do I care to add their magical strength to our own, and I agree with your point about diluting our tribunal votes. But they need to be forced to submit to a rule of law, for our safety and for their own good.
Your other point is esoteric and strange, and makes no sense. It seems very much at odds with Flambeau philosophy. Eliminate the hedge wizards, take their resources, and there is more magic at your disposal. However, I can see how this line of reasoning can be a useful tool to convince the more agressive magi that the Hedge Wizards should be offered the choice to join and not simply executed.
(concerning the arrival of Kesara)
[color=red]So this is the little legacy, eh? Interesting.
Vares' expression is slightly baleful as he counters Tresmillia with, "The smallest charm that grants a man greater success in battle, that keeps his flock healthy, that turns aside malevolence, that allows him to father a child who will live to become his heir--all change the world. But there are so many other forces working against them that to begrudge the mundanes any Magical succor would be to force them into the arms of the Divine. The Divine, which weighs upon and seems to resent even those smallest, most benign of Practitioners. If we uproot and destroy those minorest Talents who live amongst the mundanes, the mundanes will deny our traditions, will turn away from our mysteries, and will claim more of the world for that which stands against us."
Again, a different stance. "Flambeau test themselves against those who are worthy adversaries. Some of my House treat those who do not have the same martial skill with contempt. To fight an army of sorcerers, to duel one whose arcane might is great, to hone one's ability against such a foe--that is glory. To slaughter those who simply cannot compete is folly when those others are needed. Bringing them under the same aegis is another matter, but we must be realistic. The Code was never intended to apply to those who are not a threat, who cannot stand among us as true peers. When Flambeau the Founder stalked Europe, he sought those worthy of joining. Those who were, who refused, he fought to prove himself and the Order. He won. All until the last. There are tales of him slaying many lesser lights. Some may be true. We should remember the lessons of Tytalus' own Filia, who found those outside the Order who had worth, and so brought them in. But not all. Many were left to their own lives."
"I say again, Magic flows from Magic. Burn all the undergrowth of a forest and the forest will slowly wither. Kill all the animals save the mightest predators, and the predators will starve after they have slain one another. Small Talents are the seeds that call more Magic into the world. Their presence nurtures the Power that WE call upon."
OOC: Call it "the ecology of Magic" if you want. The argument is that if only Magi are left, if there are no minor Talents, then there will be that much less to nurture the small pools of Magic that flow into the greater lakes which the Magi need. Without small wizards allowed to interact with mundanes, the mundanes, too, will deny and reject Magic, causing Magic to vanish faster.
Not feeling prosaic dialogue right now, I’ll just do some narrative.
Tremsilla is taken aback at your seemingly anti-Divine attitude. I take my cue from ArM5, p. 10, in reference to the Schism War and distrust of the Diedne “The pagans of that House had always been somewhat distant from the rest of the Order, which was, and always has been, largely Christian.” I would figure that this would be especially true in House Flambeau and House Gurnicus. But there are many exceptions, and the role of the Divine and Magic is still a subject of much debate. But to Tresmilla, a Spanish Catholic, your argument sounds like the delusions of a non believer. As in Paul’s letter to the Romans, every hardship is a blessing for it builds character, and character builds hope. And in her point of view, she doesn’t want mundanes turning to the Magic Realm for aid or assistance. They should turn to the Divine. She thinks any and all interference with mundanes is a bad thing. She is more liberal and pragmatic than her parens, as long as there is nothing overt and obvious, and if it isn’t making a major splash, then Assistance (as opposed to Interference) is acceptable. But many of the examples you site, a charm to aid in battle or affect a lineage of heirs, that is all illegal and forbidden. She doesn’t want mundanes seeking the mysteries of magi, she thinks said parental role is a bad thing, bad for mundanes and bad for the Order. These things are the prerogative of God, and if magi commit the sin of Presumption on such a mass scale, he may decide to eliminate all magic altogether. Your “Magical Ecology” argument confuses her, and your allegory is a completely foreign concept to the medieval mindset. And the idea that magic could somehow fade because people stop believing in it, that just makes her laugh. (OOG-Such a thing could never happen, reality is what it is regardless of what people believe. The BDR concept came and went with 3rd edition. Your other points are valid debate but this one I am telling you flat out is untrue. You can deny and reject sunlight all you want, but it still saturates the earth constantly anyway).
OOC: Hey, could you perhaps repost that with Tremsilla words and body language and not so much prose and narrative that seems to ramble and hard to understand. Let us discover her attitudes in what she says, not ooc narrative. That last post had me going "whaaaaaa? Huh? What is he talking about?" If Vares has some mistaken beliefs even silly, let her mock it IC and let him believe it and speak for it. Hell, in 5th edition the entire enigma is based on a lie but the house still believes it and follows it and yet seems to get power from it.
Meh, not interested in Tesmilla, She's a twit. The important part is that she views Vares as a philisophical Flambeau. I am feeling lazy, and when I feel like writing dialogue I will prolly want to work on something else. I am also trying to leave hooks open for future useage. And mainly I am trying to fill space until the Drake Hunt is over (which should be soon). I didn't want the guys over here to feel ignored.
And the Enigma is not based on a lie. The conclusion House Criamon draws from it is a lie. The Gorgiastics do not believe in the lie at all but still study the Enigma. And maybe it is Tresmilla that believes in a lie 
OOC: I'm not positing the "Belief equals Reality" model. That one always bothered me, because if it were true, then the world would be under the prevailing beliefs of China and/or India, with populations that were always vastly larger than those in Europe. It was one of my main arguments against their depictions in "Mage: The Ascension". The Technomancers would never have gotten anywhere if they relied on Belief. Magic would always have won. Ergo, they learned how to do something else. Either they figured out the actual, underlying laws of the universe using Technomancy, and started exploiting them, or else they discovered a way to shift the Earth into a "reality" in which pragmatic, empirical forces held greater sway, regardless of what people "Believed".
What I am contending has more to do with Sourcing. It assumes that the material world is real. The supernatural worlds are "real", but are apart from it. Activity linking Earth to those worlds creates the Realms. Everyone has a small amount of influence/ability to connect to these Realms. The focus of their concentration (call it "Belief" if you want; Vares views it as channeling their innate Power, attuning it toward one Realm or another) creates the connection or strengthens it. Realms also work with or against one another. As more people turn toward an intolerant version of the Dominion, opening themselves to the Divine Source channeled through that conduit, the Dominion works in opposition to Magic, even (especially) the smallest magicks. It crushes the wild Magic, forces it out, uproots its strongholds, and supplants it with something else. Vares actually views the Divine as a Generative force, with the Dominion as something that taps into it, but thinks that the current version is extremely bad for Magic and the Order. He knows that there are other "tempers" (to use a previously-favoured term) that exist (no, he has no definite idea about how or why they exist, only knows that he has been in Dominion areas where the interactions behaved differently), and that not all are as antithetical to Magic. That includes, perversely, some of the Muslim Dominion, which accepts Magic that is not malevolent in nature.
And, yes, he DOES have sympathies for the "pagan" Magi--including House Mercere. He views himself as an independent philosopher, and thus is willing to challenge those who embrace "Faith" without question. He sees paradoxes and hypocrises that make him compelled to challenge it. The mass murder ongoing within a few hundred miles of Andorra, fueled by the Church's intolerance toward those whom he has evidence possess a Divine connection of their own, undermines the validity of the Church's rule. He has traveled far, met with those of very different views, and is extremely cosmopolitan.
Vares allegory is valid for anyone who studies nature. The Medieval mindset may not grasp integrated ecology in the way that modern science does, but anyone who studied the behaviour of the world would know a lot more than the "official" view. Just because the "official" scholars were clueless, doesn't mean that anyone with practical field experience couldn't see right through their inanity. Vares watches. Vares listens. He has seen things, asked questions that any Magus who delves into nature should understand.
Note that his attitude toward hedge wizards is informed by something else that distinguishes him from many other Magi. Whereas most get the "cold shoulder" or worse because of their Gifts (and hedge wizards have no Parma to counter it), Vares is greeted warmly and in a friendly fashion by them. He is able to converse with them, learn about their traditions, their lives, and see them as something more than an insignificant, hostile, pathetic rival to the "true" Power of Hermetic Magic. He still believes that Hermetic Magi are perhaps the greatest of all Practitioners, that they are "nobler" in Power and scope than hedge wizards, and will back the Order, but he appreciates hedge wizards for their value. As, he will be quick to point out, do members of Houses Jerbiton and Mercere as well as Ex Miscellanea. Merinita are known to deal with them, too.
OOC: I want to phrase my arguments in an IC context. Just stating them OOC confuses what I think versus what Vares thinks and believes. I'll state, independently and for the record, that the InHe 10 spell "Instinct (Intuition?) of the Forest" offers an intuitive understanding of the balances at work, including actions that will harm the woods and those which will not. That's a very basic spell, and one that can be Sponted by a Magus with the right focus or experience. It would reveal something of the web of relationships that exist in nature. At higher levels, InHe and InAn spells would expose dramatically more about natural balances, giving Magi unparalleled insights. MAGIC animals may behave more in accordance with "The Medieval Bestiary" (a sourcebook that, truthfully, troubled me greatly, because it was based on allegorical works rather than those of the period which concerned actual animal behaviour, as might, for example, be found in books on hawking or the care and breeding of horses or dogs), but those in the 'mundane' realm behave largely akin to RL animals, albeit with influence on them from the various Realms tilting their behaviour and some of their composition, just as the Realms have affected human bloodlines.
Ahem At any rate, the IC response.
IC: "If we were forbidden to grant any assistance to the mundanes, any commerce, then even the rules implemented in the Roman Tribunal on the sale of magical items would be a gross violation of the Code."
Taking in Tresmillia's preferred dress and presentation, Vares asks, "Do you contend that we have to deny our very existence to the mundanes? Or that Magic must enter some remote exile, forever apart from them? I have heard some make that claim. Doissetep at the forefront of it. Houses Jerbiton and Mercere would strongly disagree, and members of many others would, too."
Rather than vex the Quaesitora to extremes, he chooses to apply persuasive reason. "For every Magus or Maga in the Order, there are perhaps another four or five Gifted who do not belong. You are right--and the history of our Order agrees--that we must do what we can to bring them into our Order as equals to whom the Code applies. Our Power is great, and can be dangerous when wielded without concern or care.
"But for every Gifted, there are scores who possess only small amounts of Magic. Many can do only one thing, or a few things, weakly. They are not strong enough to stand as members of our Order, yet there must be an alternative other than murdering them for their failure to BE strong enough to rightly invite to join. They relate to mundanes better than most Magi.
I know where you are coming from. With all the NPC's running around, I sometimes have trouble coming up with distinct different dialogue patterns. But the harder challenge is coming up with a set of beliefs that, though maybe similar to some of mine, are yet distinctly different and unique to the individual character.
And an IC reply 
[color=green]Tresmilla: [color=red]Yes, well, you are no longer in Rome. I have no influence over the corrupt back-room dealings that serve as an excuse for Tribunal politics over there. They even wave the Expiry requirements over there, claiming that their rules are older and take precedence. But in any case, their dealings are still conducted through intermediaries. No noble or aristocrat has direct access to a wizard of any sort, no one that they can expect performance from except for the poor mundane Venditiore. Look, the danger is jealous nobles, not hedge wizards per se. As a theoretical example, say a group of hedge wizards serve one noble. There power is very weak, but they still yield tangible results on behalf of their liege. The baron next door, jealous of his neighbor, turns to a local covenant of magi and starts demanding the same thing. They are forced to break the code themselves or suffer persecution. Even if it is a minor favor, the time of a magus is too precious for the capricious demands of mundanes. If that other group of wizards were members of the Order, you could bring them up on charges of interference or at least demand that they make things equal between neighbors. I suppose you Flambeau could just bully them into it, but most of us prefer the peaceful path of law and order. I want to make hedge wizards answerable to the same code and laws that the rest of us are. What is so wrong with that?
[color=green]Tresmilla: [color=red]I agree with that concept, but you cite extreme examples and take the concept a little to far. We cannot deny we exist. Did you know that the Vatican has a special office that exists simply for dealing with us? Oh, they keep various arcane and occult records and keep tabs on various traditions. But aside from that, they have diplomats and scholars specially trained to deal with us as a political entity. They keep records on us, they have spies in our covenants. They tread carefully, for they believe our unity to be a self-delusion. The one cardinal, he states that "forceful action could cause a new rift amongst them, which in turn could lead to renewed Schismatic warfare that could again cause devastation and suffering throughout the land". They know much about us, but do not understand what it is we can and cannot do. And there is an unspoken agreement of sorts. They take care of the spiritual and physical needs of the mundane world governed by Dominion, they leave all things supernatural up to our discretion. They use their own definitions of what is "supernatural", but the point is that it is the wrath of the Church that you risk invoking when you interfere with mundanes. And why should we allow the unregulated hedge wizards to interfere in whatever random manner they please, drawing suspicion upon all of us, when we magi must act so carefully cautious?
[color=green]Tresmilla: [color=red]If you have any ideas for another form of regulation that would be as efficient as the Code, I am eager to hear them. However, I would point out that there already exists within the Order a place where the weak may fit in. Ex-Miscellanea. Did you know that there is a tradition in Stonehenge that is dedicated to just making Wards. That’s it, just wards. They are really good at it, but the superiority of Parma Magica and the Aegis was proven during the war against Dav’nallius.
"Many nobles have minor hedge wizards at their 'courts'. Magi should be above such squabbles, lest we try to act as kingmakers and so become ensnared and violate the Code. But I do not speak only of those who may have Power enough to significantly alter the balance; I speak of those who aid the peasants, who sell herbs and potions and charms to the townfolk. Those who may have a single Talent to speak with animals or glimpse that which is hidden. They are insignificant beside us, yet they are heirs of Magic, and it is in their blood. If we were to force them all into Ex Miscellanea, we would find our own Houses overwhelmed. It would be like giving peasants' voices over their lords! There'd be factions, to be sure, but the idea of a hundred Ex Misellanea to every one of another House is unthinkable." He shakes his head. "No, if we tried that, they would perish in Wizard War after Wizard War, and THAT would do greater harm to the Order than leaving them in peace."
Vares voice is even. "The Church has records on us--and we have records on it. Sometimes, as in opposing the Infernal, we are allied. But too many argue that 'witch' is any who is Touched by Magic. These teachings seem to have made the Dominon harsher toward Magic than in the past. How many Places of Power where Magic or Faerie flowed freely now have Churches built atop them, sealing the flow and diminishing what was? How many Genius Loci have been silenced, fabulous beasts hunted, and old customs that allowed Magic to be known and respected treated with disrespect and disdain?
"I am not supporting Pyrsius of Constantinople's stand (OOC: "On Defying the Church", The Wizard's Grimoire). What I say is that we cannot cede our birthrights and the right to Magic to the brunt of the Dominion's hold. And if they think us fractured, the politics of the Church is ten, a hundred times worse.
"Then you would ban ALL magic items from the hands of mundanes?" He is frankly curious.
OOC: Just wondering when Vares might get a reply. Are we waiting on the return of the others from the Drake Hunt or some other event?
Oh, yeah. Sorry. I have been focused on trying to wrap that up. Not much of a response that I can think of. We seem to be going around in circles.
Lets switch to something else. Itroduce Tremsilla to Kesara and discuss The Knights of Seneca and House Flambeau. What do you think is the signifigance in all of this? hat do you think should be done? What is in the best interests of the Order, your House, and of your Societas?
Kesara's arrival interrupts the increasingly strained conversation. Vares' masks his disappointment at the Quaesitora's inability to grasp the fully dynamics of the situation, let alone the metaphysical ramifications of events. Keeping her in a reasonable tenor is diplomatically preferable, and perhaps giving her time to work over what he has said will improve her perspective.
He escorts Tresmillia down to the hall to meet Kesara. In truth, he has had few dealings with the girl himself.
OOC: Vares has been preoccupied. He knows more about her (IC; OOC, I haven't followed closely, except regarding her parentage, the question of her Apprenticeship versus mentoring, and her prophesied role as the Lumina) than her, personally.
Incidentally, whose Parma is shielding her? Who is guarding her at present?
Her father's Parma still shields her, until the next subnset. Then I suppose you are expected to take over.
(I am holding to the letter of the wording. Protection lasts as long as one character can see the other. So even if no one can see Kesara, others protected by Inigo's Parma can still see each other).
Kesara is oh so charming and sweet and plucky around her father. But when he is not around, she gets agressive and can be a real brat. This is one of those times. She is all pouty and cranky.
Seeing Kesara's mood, Vares contemplates the upcoming interval during which he brings her under his Parma. Delaying the smallest amount, he knows, will make her more affable to him, however brief the time that the impression is made. He dwells upon the methods he'll use when he takes his own Apprentice, whenever that may be.
He addresses her in a reasonable voice. "Kesara, we were told that you bring a message. What is it?"
This is soon followed by, "Our guest wished to meet you. Kesara filia (OOC: is there an Apprenticeship form for the relationship to distinguish it from a Gauntleted Maga/Magus?) Inigo, this is the Quaesitora Tresmillia filia Barachus, from Duresca in Iberia."
This is a very interesting point to contemplate. Indeed, what effect would this have on the psychology over time?
[color=red]Me? Didn't the soldier tell you..., she stops to listen to the voice inside her head. That's not how your father would act, surly and lazy like a spoiled brat. The man asked you a question, be serious and give the man the report....um, yes, the Drake Hunt was put on hold, problems with ogres and a hag. They are fighting them and stuff, and will be back soon.
This is soon followed by, "Our guest wished to meet you. Kesara filia (OOC: is there an Apprenticeship form for the relationship to distinguish it from a Gauntleted Maga/Magus?) Inigo, this is the Quaesitora Tresmillia filia Barachus, from Duresca in Iberia."
[/quote]
Having fufilled the obligations of Duty, Kesara lapses back into her normal surly self 
[color=red]Yeah, hi. I'm going to go visit with Sister Ameline. I want to practice my letters.
(really, she is planning to get sister Ameline to read stories to her, and wants to tell her about the camp and things she saw).
But Tremsilla interrupts.
[color=red]Oh, Vares, please have her stay. It is almost dinnertime anyway. Perhaps you could have one of the servants prepare a small supper the three of us could share? I am interested in getting to know this charming young lady.
OOC: Over time, small 'glimpses' of Vares' Power and his Alluring (to Magic) Gift will likely reinforce the impression that he is an important, compelling person and one whom she wants to trust and whose approval she seeks (I'm basing this on the writeup for the Alluring To Magic Virtue). It wouldn't be constant. The fact that it comes in small intervals would probably indicate more of Vares' dual nature--his penchant for being unobtrusive and subtle, versus his potential to be extremely striking and profound. Whether she'd realise it or not on a conscious level, she'd ultimately realise that Vares spends most of his time "masking" the true scope of his Power, and that there is much more to him than is evident on casual inspection.
IC: "There was word of Ogres, but no mention of any 'Hags'. You were sent back for your own safety, then?" Vares is moderately concerned, but only moderately. With all the other Magi in the field, the complication is one which should be resolved readily or at least decisively.
He spares Tresmillia a sidelong glance, debating how much to explain. "Ameline is one of Kesara's recognised tutors. We shouldn't delay her if she's expected." He turns back to Kesara. "ARE you expected? If you came back early, you shouldn't have any lessons planned."
OOC: How old is Kesara? Eight or nine?
Eleven I think.
[color=red]I am not expected, just that's what my father told me to do when I got back (lie)