Chapter III (1230-1234)

[color=red]"So, if, and I know the odds of this happening are astronomical, but just for the sake of argument, if somehow a breastplate you were enchanting for the covenant should shatter, you believe that you shouldn't be allowed access to the covenant library for seven years?"

[color=red]"I think I should be allowed to bequeath my valuables to whomever I want. If my husband is a magus, I'd imagine he would get most of my magical items. If he's Flambeau eyebat [color=red]then he'd definitely get my arms. Any other magical items, I should be able to either leave him or leave the covenant without being forced to give so much to one or the other. And how, pray tell, shall we determine the vis value of my dresses?"

"Seven seems excessive. But it says, right here, 'No less than one year.'"

"If your dresses are mundane items, then their vis value is zero. Given how frequently you seem to lose your clothes, though, enchanting your dresses seems ill-advised. And if you intend to marry some outsider and leave bequeath your magical legacy to... to some man you're sleeping with, instead of to your sodales who fight beside you and bleed beside you..." he looks disgusted, "...I don't even know you." (Go, go, Judged Unfairly! :frowning:)

Vibria raises a brow. [color=red]"Well, notwithstanding the fact that marriage is more than just sleeping together, I would be very surprised, and disappointed, if my husband wasn't in residence here, if not a member of the Council, and would fight and bleed beside me."

She looks at him curiously, trying to determine if he might be jealous of her "theoretical future husband." ((Per 0 + Folk Ken 0 + die roll of 4 = 4.))

(Against Guile 0 - 3 Com + 4 = 1.) Vulcanus has absolutely no idea Vibria was trying to flirt with him just then, but he's pissed at the idea that she would place her mundane family above her Hermetic sodales. He didn't show any signs of jealousy about the idea of Vibria having a husband, but he did twitch, badly, at her casual suggestion of "I should be able to leave him..."

"If you intend to marry a magus and bring him to Andorra, then you should have no qualms about bequeathing your magic items to the covenant, where he will still benefit from them."

Vulc's dismal Guile is bad enough that anyone who can beat an EF 1 will get that he really doesn't expect anyone to agree to that bit, but it's important enough to him that he's trying to sell it anyway.


Vibria's voting to strike that particular clause. ((Per 0 + Folk Ken 0 + (die roll of 1, followed by a die roll of 3) 6 = 6.))

Carmen's considers the points of the proposal and responds.

Understood. Perhaps you need to clarify the meaning of "Communal Property" though, Items owned by the covenant, having been purchased, made for, or gifted to the council for the express use of the covenant. Or simply say "Covenant Property" instead.

I would rather you said "at the council's discretion as advised by the Artifex". You may also wish to extend this to say items may be designed or allocated for the express, restricted, and/or sole use of another member. Perhaps based upon the duties and expectations of that member. For example, Vibria's armor. I believe the council approved that expense? Our members need to be equipped to defend themselves, and Vibria has the potential to be one of our heavy hitters one day. And it would be nice if her close didn't fall off or get destroyed during and adventure for a changesize=1[/size]).
But when it comes to the idea of "Structures", I am extremely reticent to consider anything that may inhibit the rights and privileges of our members. Especially Masters. Strictures should be held for a Journeyman member.

I can abide with this. However, you should make a distinction by saying "gross negligence", we are not worried about accidents or trivial mistakes.

Give this power to the council, under the advisement of the Artifex or a Pontifex.


I motion to strike this clause. If a member is found guilty of willful misuse or gross negligence, as defined by this proposal, the council already has the right to fine them or assign other penalties as due for a Low Crime. Which this would be at most. Suspension of rights and privileges such as this is only for High Crimes.

You do need to word this better, but I can see your point if it is, after all, covenant property to begin with. However, the council can choose to gift said item to the legitimate heirs of the departed.
Which we shall get to in a moment...

No need for this, and no way to enforce it. Just have them return the covenant their lawful property and go.

No. Absolutely not. The heirs of a magus are who he wills them to be or as determined by natural law. Those of his lineage have a claim, as does his family. Mundane or not, family claims are natural law and take precedence of many magnitude before simple familiarity. Family first, then lineage, then covenant mates. That's the way it goes. Items of covenant property in his possession at the time, we keep those, but may choose to gift them to the departed other heirs.

I can agree to all of this.

Change this to "Council's Decision under advisement of the Artifex", and we're fine. Except for this (what's this about a hand?) part that you already struck out.

"I'd like to avoid holding a council meeting every time a matter of item usage comes up. Hence 'Artifex discretion.' If the Council finds the Artifex's discretion lacking, a new Artifex should be appointed."

How about saying "At the discretion of the Artifex with consent of the council" ?

"As long as consent doesn't require a damn meeting," he grunts.

It would simply mean that the council can also allocate or reallocate resources as needed.

"So you're going to change the charter's definition of the Artifex's role?" He clears his throat, and recites, "'Pertaining to enchanted items of communal property, the Artifex has the discretion of what shall be distributed or available.' Now you're not only complaining about the pre-existing term 'communal property' but also arguing that the council should oversee every step of the Artifex's role and may overrule every decision he makes? There's no point in HAVING an Artifex, then. Sodales, can you excuse the two of us for a moment?"

(Snipped, as Mark decided none of this never happened.)

Make sure you wipe all that irony off your boots before tracking it into the council chamber. :wink:

Pfft. Vulc is the soul of professionalism. He screwed up with Gemma but, in his defense, the woman WAS a witch who could enchant men's hearts.

Vulc is making armor for Vocis and Esteban too, you know. The reason he made Vibria's first is because neither of the other two found themselves naked in the middle of a dangerous situation.


No. It is inappropriate to interrupt a council meeting to make side small talk in the hall. And you are misunderstanding my meaning. What is contained in this document pertains to much more than your authority to distribute items. It is including provisions for the covenant to fund items for others as you see fit with no oversight. You are also claiming the authority to fine others, ban them from the library and such, or chop off hands. As you see fit. With no oversight. You are greatly expanding the parameters and authority of your office. You need to tone that down.

((OOC: because Carmen will refuse to recess council, the whole side conversation in the hall never takes place))

"Fine. I wanted to spare you some embarrassment, but have it your way. The role of Artifex is already defined in the charter, and what you are suggesting completely invalidates that role. If my refusal to abuse the trust the council has placed in me as Artifex to waste my time and our covenant's resources recreating toys from your childhood means you want me to stop acting as Artifex, then grow a pair and say so. Don't waste everyone's time trying to redefine the role to make it obsolete. Just nominate Esteban for Artifex, and maybe you can try to convince HIM to waste our vis stores making you a set of animated Knights of Seneca action figures for you to play with along with your little carpet. My job is not to amuse you or make you feel warm fuzzy nostalgia, it's to allocate Andorra's resources in the most efficient way to best benefit the covenant. If you're going to stay pissed at me because I'M DOING EXACTLY THAT, then bloody well fire me. But don't hurt everyone in this covenant because you don't know how to handle it when you don't get your way."

Your antagonism and emotional ploys are ineffective and non-sequiter. Your own emotional insecurity is causing you to react irrationally to my addressing simple logical concerns.
You already have the authority to distribute and allocate items as needed, and nothing would change that. All I am asking for is some oversight on the additional powers you are requesting. It doesn't mean you need to seek out anyone's approval. Just make a report of your decisions to the council when you present your budget request.
Further, I would ask you to stop questioning my ideas and decisions as being based upon whatever deluded motives you perceive. You are being disrespectful of a fellow magus and covenant mate, which is in truth an indication of a lack of self respect and confidence. Compose yourself and behave as the man of honor that you are.

"You wanted 'An item of communal property may be designated for exclusive use to an Andorran Master, consors, or custos at the Artifex's discretion' changed to 'at the council's discretion as advised by the Artifex.' You wanted 'Designated-Use items may be temporarily re-issued for other use by the Artifex or a Pontifex' to be given 'to the council, under the advisement of the Artifex or a Pontifex.' These are both things which already fall under the role of Artifex, as currently defined by the charter. I am merely seeking to make these things explicit for everyone here. Vibria loves the armor I made for her use, and as you can see, she already thinks of it as hers. So what happens if she wants to leave Andorra? She's already said she thinks she should have the right to do so freely. So to avoid any problems, I'm trying to make it very clear what everyone can expect, before I start on the next major project. Which-- before I forget, Vocis, can you come by the workshop some time this week so we can get your measurements?"

"Carmen, if you want me to stop questioning your ideas and decisions, then make decisions based on rational justification and explicit reasoning, rather than venting your personal biases unjustified. I fully admit that I have been very disrespectful to you, very recently, in my ham-handed attempt to get you to realize what a spoiled brat you were acting like. Could I have declined to make your carpet in a way that wasn't hurtful and didn't trample on your good memories from your childhood? I don't know if I could have, but I absolutely should have tried. Could you have handled being told "no" without threatening to waste covenant resources just to piss me off? We both know you're capable of it, and you should have tried. Now, you are seeking to reverse the charter's definition of the Artifex role. You have given no reasoning why you believe the role should be limited from its existing definition. And in the same breath, you accuse me of acting irrationally? If you want to limit the role of Artifex from its current definition, then give reasoning for wishing it so, and if the Council as a whole decides that the role of Artifex is currently defined as too broad in scope, then so be it. If you don't trust me to do my job as it was defined when I was selected for it, then dismiss me from it and choose someone else you do trust to fill the role as it is already defined. Now either explain why you want my job not to exist anymore, hire someone else to do it, or let me do my job."

Actually, no. The Artifex may assign and distribute items, but there is currently no provision for a definite or indefinite time limit or a definition of permanent designated use. I agree, this is a gray area that need to be clarified with explicit wording. The wording you quoted is my first brainstorm for a revision. Not what I am currently proposing. What I am currently proposing is something more like "at the discretion of the Artifex as advised by the council". Oversight. You got to think of the future. You are not immortal and are not the last Artifex this covenant is ever going to have. The council need to be able to have some input, I order to say "we don't think X is a good idea", or to say "we think we really need Y to be equipped with Z".

And I think some of your expectations are unrealistic and attempt to abrogate inalienable rights of inheritance. If an item is made and assigned to a specific individual, it is because of a specific function or duty we expect of them. It is not fair to then charge them "rent" for the equipment necessary to do their job.
In fact, perhaps we should rewrite that whole section. If a Master requires or requests a specific item, and the Artifex agrees, an expense request is made of the council. If approved, the council funds the whole of the cost and the person requesting it gets to keep it. Forever. And they can will it to their heirs. If not approved, the Artifex may still make it if he chooses and it is funded from his normal budget, but the one receiving the item must reimburse this expense with vis of their own or owe it to us. That's how you can collect your inheritance tax if you want, taking the value of their debts remaining to the covenant off the top of the value of the goods their heirs receive.

I accept your apology in good grace if you can accept mine. What you perceive as "acting as a spoiled brat" is in truth my clumsy and inexperienced way of handling a mixture of enthusiasm for a great idea and my frustration in trying to communicate that to you.

Your memory is faulty. You came to me asking for me to make an enchantment for you. I told you what I wanted in return, quid pro quo, and you berated not just my idea, but you insulted my honor and integrity with your accusations.
And what I really had hoped to express to you is that this is a really good idea. Somehow you just can't get it through your head that this is a great idea that addresses so many logic problems such as transport of personnel and materials quickly and securely.
And what you call a waste of resources comes straight out of my father's book of ideas for creating covenant harmony. The magic item contest. I won't tell you any more save that I have been legitimately studying my father's account of three different competitions he had observed, one which he participated in.

Save for the fact that I am informing you that you are acting irrationally, your whole summary is incorrect. And the only reason I am even telling you that you are being irrational is because I care about you and it pains me to watch you embarrass yourself. I am not trying to insult you, please do not take it that way. I am being honest and sincere. Just a few moments ago, you said

. Now you are desperately seeking excuses to act offended and outraged. The more I compromise and try to work with you, the worse you get.
Tell me, sodale, what is the real problem? What is hurting you?

"There's no provision for time limits because it's unnecessary. The council always has input on EVERY matter of covenant business, but there is no need to convene a meeting every time an item is reallocated. Requiring one just creates more bureaucracy and wastes time."

"Unrealistic does not mean the idea is bad, it merely means that people are inherently selfish and some among us cannot see past our own wants and desires to reciprocate the investments one's covenant makes in an individual. I fully expect that most of us would bequeath the majority of our magical wealth to Andorra. But some of us" his eyes flick to Vibria, "Would never think to do so."

"That idea is horribly short-sighted. It would drain the covenant coffers in no time, and not only would we not be able to create a legacy to leave for our descendants, we would never be able to build up stores of vis for when we need it. We need to start thinking about what we can do to leave Andorra a greater place than it was when we found it... instead of thinking about what we can take away from it."

"I do accept. Please understand that when you will not even listen to alternative solutions to the problem you say exists, it suggests fixation on a memory, to the exclusion of concern for utility."

"As is your memory. The disparaging comments I made about you behavior were in response to your irrational behavior. I was absolutely out of line when I offered to spank you, but threatening to squander a queen of Andorra's vis to try and make me think your manky carpet is as wonderful as you remember? Not appropriate behavior for a Pontifex. You are Antonio's legacy. The Knights of Seneca, House Flambeau, and Andorra all expect far more from you than we would from a lesser maga in your position. It isn't fair, but... life's not fair, princess."

"Your father also had those ideas when Andorra wasn't in such a bad position that the council had to defer salaries," Vulcanus states bluntly.

"Sodalis," he corrects gently, "I need no excuse to be outraged when I cannot trust Antonio's heir to act like the leader everyone here knows she can be. You have the potential to be the greatest leader Andorra has ever known, but if you don't stop clinging to the luxuries you enjoyed before tragedy befell, you will lead us into ashes. Now, if you want me gone, then say so and I will go. If you want to burden Andorra with more bureaucracy out of a genuine concern that a single officer cannot be trusted to allocate covenant resources, then present your reasoning for that concern. But if you deny both of those possibilities, and yet refuse to offer explanation for your supposed "concerns," then you are wasting the time of every magus here. You can keep insulting and belittling me if you need to, but DO stop deflecting the question."

To Vulcanus: If I may, what is the objection to enchanting one or more flying carpets, and why would it require a queen of vis? I tend to agree with Carmen's assertion that they would be of great benefit, regardless of her nostalgic interests.