Character Creation Discussions (OOC)

Indeed. What I wanted to say, is that I would be happy to run stories based on house and cult interaction, if you embrace the hubris. Otherwise, I need to see more of the character concept before I know if I can come up with good ideas. To me, hubris is an interesting story line, worth telling once, but it is not necessarily the story line a given player wants to tell ...

Well, if I have someone willing to run stories about it then the hubris would be more interesting, and certainly lean me towards being a more cultish type mystery cultist.

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You can see the list of the current magi, with a one-line summary of their concept, in this post. The name of each character is a link to the character sheet, including detailed background and stats.

Splendid. Thank you. Is their a similar list of beta-SG commitments?

BTW. Have I understood it correctly that you never started playing? Or has there been some evolution in game?

BTW2. It would be useful to list the story flaws in the character overview (list), for quick reference for story planning.

Not at this time, but I could create one in the Notes and Claims topic.

Are you familiar with the "Wiki" posts? When you use the function "Make wiki" on a post, everyone can edit it from then on.

May I ask? How does failed gauntlet (dark secret) fit with having a score in Parma Magica? What does the dark secret really entail?

I moved your post here because we do not put discussions in the character's stats topic. It is only for the final result.

Parma Magica is usually thaught as part of the Gauntlet ceremony. Remember that House Tytalus considers that if succeed in killing your master, you just passed your Gauntlet. The Dark Secret is that Perion didn't actually kill his master...

No, I was not familiar with the make wiki. Thanks. I'll look into that.

There was sort of a list, I saw, but not really matching character concepts, story concepts, and beta-SG duties ...

Speaking of which, I could tune a Tremere concept to @callen 's Lotharingian tribunal and/or to the old/hedge magic line of @Plot_Device . Then I could develop mystery cult intrigue and vendettas for the Verditius of @StephenFleetwood . Is that enough, and sufficiently balanced, links to move on to develop the characters?

I have to run some errands here quick, but I'll post what I recall everyone has so far for you in a bit:

Clusius of Jerbiton, the Heir, played by Arthur
Wolfgang of Flambeau, the Champion, played by Plot_Device
Mariana of Flambeau, the Steward (mundane interaction), played by callen
Perion of Tytalus, the Explorer, played by Houlio (me)

Early on we talked about filling out a number of different roles/titles at the covenant for our Magi. The two players who dropped had: (1) a character more geared towards Hermetic diplomacy/relations with other covenants and (2) a character focused on mundane interactions that callen later slid into after they left. I believe callen previously was going for some kind of ritual spell-caster/lab rat type of character, leaving that style of role open as well as the Hermetic Diplomat.

I don't remember off the top of my head for beta-SG duties, I know I was going to handle the Telsberg family stories (and have a companion from that family).

Hello and welcome to the new folks!

And Hi @loke, it's been a while!

I think people have a range of takes on House Tremere, so interested to get your interpretation. I think the only thing that's universally agreed-on is that it's the one House that's actually somewhat monolithic, and moves as a House.

Yeah, how have you been?

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my take.

I think the range of takes represents a historical development, in the history of the Order and the history of canon editions. I think 5ed is pretty clear in that the house tries to be a military branch of the Order, for its common Good, and they organise to be that. They believe that the Order would be better off if everybody organises as they do, but see no other way of change but slow persuasion. How that pans out in game depends as much on the SG and the NPCs representing the house as it does on the PC.

My take was a slightly strange one, but it is stuck in my head:

The Tremere think of themselves as the military of the order. They are soldiers . But they are also a latin house and learned men and women. Under those circumstances, it makes sense to me that they would have learned the lessons of the Roman legions: that discipline is more important than bravery, drill wins more battles than skill and logistics wins wars.

So, to me it makes sense that the Tremere know that house Flambeau, for example, are great champions of personal combat and not expect to fight one successfully one on one. But the Tremere don't fight a threat with a single Tremere when ten could do the job with no risk and greater certainty. Other houses have hoplites in times of crisis, but in my head, I can see the Tremere deploying phalanxes. After all, it is annoying to have to take a few days out of your learning to be magically flown to a trouble spot, crush the trouble, and be flown back, but it brings the comfort of knowing when you break then enchanted object that allows you to send a message up the chain of command for support, that the cavalry is definitely coming.

The way a military wins wars is by having well-ordered, well-equipped, and fed men in the right place, used to working together and under a known leadership who can be wielded to win the conflict. House Tremer takes this to mean it should be able to gather its members at short notice, inform them of difficulty, and have them already know their place in the functioning maching of Tremere efficiency.

But all of that logistics is expensive. They need to have some people who are supplying all the means to bring the house into a terrifying juggernaut of conflict. So there must logically be Tremere whose job it is to set up waystations, places to heal the sick and make enchanted items. Places to teach those who need new skills and muster troops before the big push. Places for those on a campaign to fall back to in an emergency and find a possibly short-lived but mighty line of defense to reorganise in. To be an army means having a support corps. I was going to pitch one of those Tremere who has been sent on a long term mission to build the covenant up full of resources and useful things, both to prove the superiority of the Tremere way (tm) and if another sundering crisis came up to be a forward operating base for the main thrust of the fight.

He would have had enough magic to be useful in a fight if not a dedicated fighter (I as looking at a mastered PeCo spell, with some penetration skill, fast cast, and penetration masteries) but that is mostly because everyone should be able to fight in a difficult circumstance. Other than that he was here to build a flourishing supply base for house Tremere, by building a flourishing covenant that could be converted at short notice in a crisis.

I am aware this is a slightly non-standard reading, but it is one that makes sense in my head of a Tremere who are trying to be the army of the order by emulating the glory that was Rome, and hence being more like a legion than a modern feudal army.

We totally agree. There are two implications of your analysis that are so important for game play that they are worth reiterating.

Firstly, there are many roles to an effective army. Hence the Tremere soldier is not necessarily the combat mage who can multi-cast high-penetration pila of fire. There are combat engineers, logistics officers, signalling corps, medical support, et cetera.

Secondly, a Tremere soldier on his own is nothing. The role he assumes and the actions he makes all depend on the House's interest and capabilities. Hence, to play a Tremere, one has to design his immediate superiors and other soldiers in the vicinity. They act with co-ordination. Of course, the magus may be on his own in the story, but the ends of the story fits into a greater picture, which has to be painted to make a Tremere story, lest it be just a story about a random wizard, and we could all play Flambeaux.

A big question is also how a Tremere magus would fit into this covenant. It is, after all, founded upon the legacy of a Jerbiton magus and headed by one whose primary interest is art. Furthermore, the location of the covenant -- at the confluence of three Tribunals -- is loaded with potential political conflict, which is something that House Tremere tries to avoid because it is bad for the unity of the Order.

So building up the covenant as a Tremere waystation would probably face both internal and external resistance. Is it worth it for the House to spend the political and magical capital to establish a strong presence here, when less controversial ways would be much easier and efficient?

That being said, the House would certainly be interested in establishing a presence at this potentially troublesome covenant, if only to steer it away from actions that would damage the unity of the Order too much, as well as an intelligence-gathering station for the region (for example). In short, make the covenant a minor station in the Tremere network, rather than a supply depot with heavy support infrastructure.

At the end of the day, it is the other magi who have to decide that. So far none have spoken, and certainly not the Jerbiton.

As I see it, building up a waystation need not be the goal. The Tremere could take a very subtle role, being only the eyes and ears of the House. If the House has a stance on the Lotharingian tribunal, they might inject a diplomat, who could be very useful for the covenant as well, if their positions align. There seems to be an Ambassador vacant, and I could tune the Tremere concept to fit into that. An important point is that House Tremere plays the long game. They may place a pawn without an immediate expectation for concrete deliverables.

If the Jerbiton says that two Flambeaux and a Tytalus are enough, now we need more peaceful concepts, then I am happy to drop the Tremere idea.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. You do realize that I'm the one playing the Jerbiton? :wink:

As for the rest of your message, it isn't so much a question of peaceful vs non-peaceful concept. Only about how big a place the covenant would play in House Tremere's overall plans. A minor or supporting plac works fine, but a big role would mean many big stories involving House Tremere's plans. If the other players are in favour of that, I'm fine with it. We (as a troupe) just need enough beta SGs to be willing to run those stories and build the background for those (npcs, enemies, etc.)

No, I didn't. And your wording sounded like the general concerns of the SG and not the particular concerns of a real Jerbiton in a real covenant ...

I think it is the beta-SG-s who will have to decide how much Tremere plot is weaved into the story. I have no need to play more stories centred on my magus than on any other magus in the game. The House having an agenda does not mean that we should tell more stories about the Tremere magus, but that the House, more often than not, should be present in those stories that are told.

Anyway, I have made a proposal suggesting how the Tremere could fit into the stories. We do not get progress before the other beta-SGs speak.

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At any rate, I thought I was now slated to play the verditious so there would only be one Tremere. I just wanted to answer plot device asking what my take was.

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I just created a new list for the storyguiding commitments. It can be edited by everyone to add their own interests and commitments.

We haven't started any stories yet, but the old crop of players was just ready to do so. Since it can take a little while for new magi to be designed and possibly advanced a few years before they join the covenant, we may very well start a few stories before the new crop of magi is ready for play.

Edit: I added the list of story flaws in the same post.

Re Tremere, it's really up to the Jerbiton and the heirs and whether he'd invite them, or they would send one for some reason. It's not a coincidence that the person with the real authority over the covenant (first among equals) is played by the main SG.

I also agree with your guys' takes; but I was thinking more about the internal house motivations. There's a range of self-interest and nefariousness that can all be canon, depending on how the SG wants it to be. They can be an honest stalwart "Army of the Order", or be so caught up in the idea that their way is the best that they have an ongoing campaign to undermine opposition and guide the Order the way they want it to go.

I think Tremere (house and characters) run at the dark end of that spectrum is what puts people off them as fellow PCs.

I break down the stories into:

1- Defend the order
2- Expand House power and undermine enemies

And I think there are more opportunities for 1 on the frontier, in the center of Europe it's going to be all about 2.

I may be being a little too reductive, but I'm trying to get to a simpler set of themes. If I'm overlooking something please tell me. But I got the sense that @StephenFleetwood and @loke 's first choices were both Tremere (despite Stephen changing to Verditius) so I'm looking at it from the aspect of someone else being able to run those stories for both.