Character Creation Discussions (OOC)

I agree...at the same time the water-way range and target body of water are interesting....and the original research takes a lot of time...

I will have a gander and a thought

I know this is a question of some controversy... what do we think about MuCo giving abilities like Immunities? Do other transformations (like changing the body to living wood or stone or metal) achieve whatever would be the inherent Immunities of such materials?

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I will listen to what the others have to say before weighting in.

They should achieve some, yes. For example, if you are made of mist, weapons will pass right through you. But you shouldn't just be able to MuCo yourself to be able to replace CrIg, for example. This would be along the lines of the earlier debate about MuAu to make mist.

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From my experience, a good rule of thumb is: if you have to explain the rationale for the improvement, it probably isn't appropriate. Of course being coated in duck's feathers would make you resitant to rain, but would they keep you warm?

For effects of a more powerful nature, I have no problem with another art taking a back seat if the transforming magic is of a higher magnitude. The benefit invariably comes with RP complications so if a +1 Strength is worth walking around with bear arms (terrible example), and the magnitude is at least what you would need with a CrCo equivalent, I don't have a problem.

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I would say that having a duck's feathers would keep you warm because duck feathers keep you warm even when they are wet. They wouldn't create or radiate heat like fire does though.

I would think that transforming your body into mist or stone would do exactly those things. Mist might make you immune to being cut by a sword, but I would think it would make you very vulnerable to a strong wind. I don't think we need to represent that with a change in virtues or flaws, I think we can use qualitative descriptions that achieve such effects for the most part.

What kinds of immunities are we talking about getting here?

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Yes, precisely.

Things that would mimic canon Immunities, like fire, poison, normal weapons... in some cases the form reqs would be clear, in others not so much. Maybe they have to be treated as Wards.

In particular, Wolfgang once had an Immunity to Poison, which he lost when his gift was opened, and he will try to recreate once he's on his own.

But I'm also thinking of focusing more on Muto instead of Rego, since someone is developing into a Rego specialist, and it might be more thematic anyway, so wanted to get a general opinion on these kinds of things. (Don't worry, not going back to the mists.)

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l guess, MuCo should allow immunity to specific poison as minor feature, at the very least, as it was believed that poisonous animals were immune to their own poison.
Tho, that would mean that character invested a bit of time on learning poisons. :smiling_imp:

Well I suppose individual ones would be easier as a minor ability rather than major. What about more general immunity?

I don't like the precedent that anything gained via muto has to come from a specific animal, I'm not sure if you intend that or not.

Yes, l intended that in a sense that lvl2 base should have some inspiration as it's a rather easy one and so should be limited.
Idk, how you would get a general immunity. Sure, you could turn into stone and stone is immune to poison, but while remaining in a human form...

Oh sure, for the low level one I'd agree that wouldn't be such a general immunity. I was thinking more about analogues to the higher level MuAn guidelines.

Ah, yeah, no, they shouldn't be as limited, of course. Especially, base25.

I suggest for our post-gauntlet we just pick book quality/level in accordance with the BP guidelines (to determine quality/level caps).

Art Summae: Level limit: 20; Quality limit: 11 + (20 – level), or 22, whichever is lower
Ability Summae: Level limit: 8; Quality limit: 11 + 3 x (8 – level), or 22, whichever is lower
Tractatus: Quality limit: 11

To be clear, those would be books we use, not books we own.

I would agree, though I plan on buying some books with Vis from my Personal Vis Source.

I agree if you mean that the books studied should be in that range, but disagree if you mean the player gets to select it himself.

That would mean we can always select the best book possible for our current score in the Art or Ability. My magus has a score of 7 in an Art? He somehow gets access to a L10Q21 summa.

Normal magi would never have access to that good a library during play. It would also generate excessive amounts of xp.

Edit: Also remember that your magus has to pay for access to library and laboratory, either through seasons of service or raw vis. I am not setting a standard rate for that, but it means there should be a minimum of 1 season "lost" this way.

Assuming we're in normal covenants, why would we need to pay for access to a library or laboratory? I don't think any covenant works that way.

I think Arthur means during the post-gauntlet, pre-joining period?

I think Plot_Device's point is that we are in normal covenants somewhere for 5-10 years before we join this covenant, leaving our prior covenants behind.

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Hmm... Couple thoughts:

1: What if we roughly use Plot_Device's suggestion for limits of what we can find in a covenant library, but we scale it down to handle Arthur's point? For example,

Art summa: Level limit 13, Quality limit 11+13-level.
Ability summa: Level limit 5, Quality limit 13-level.
Tractatus: Quality limit 8.

I'm not saying those are just the right numbers to use, though I did put some thought into choosing reasonable number. Rather, I'm trying to demonstrate that we might be able to do roughly the same thing Plot_Device suggested while curbing the ridiculously-perfect library issues Arthur pointed out.

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Meanwhile, we should have access to 500 square feet of lab space and provided with silver to manage an Upkeep 0 lab.

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We could then say that any vis to be picked up to do things needs to be earned.